Revised Great War at Sea
- Thread starter Perky50
- Start date
I would also have liked to see the AH-navy take one of the RN battleships down with them.
I would also have liked to see the AH-navy take one of the RN battleships down with them.
Yeah, but there's a big difference between wanting to see an epic battle which will inevitably result in some of the RN big boys sinking (they're not perfect, or invincible after all) and expressing disappointment that the battle didn't kill enough RN sailors.
One is fair enough, the other is a bit disturbing.
Well the way the TL was written, it would have gone down on the books as an epic RN victory, with the RN eliminating the AH fleet, saving the day and taking little losses.
In this board we have often seen alot of Britwanks and so far the Brits have taken very little to no losses in this TL. The French are also known to be kicked around in this board, pretty much every WWI TL involves the French getting massacred. It just the attitude of many writers and probably the fact, that a good portion if all writers here come from the UK and thus have a biased view of wishful ATLs.
It may have been more interesting to have the French save the day for a change, instead of the British (as usual).
Bloody heck folks Listen I am a bit of wanker and lets leave it at that. And I just want to read a very well written TL and enjoy a damn good read after a hard day drawing maps, taking ph calls and listening to other peoples problems. Isnt that what we are all here for? Peace Love and eternal happyness ETC,
regards Michael
and lets leave it at that. And I just want to read a very well written TL and enjoy a damn good read after a hard day drawing maps, taking ph calls and listening to other peoples problems. Isnt that what we are all here for? Peace Love and eternal happyness ETC,regards Michael
The French fleet will get its kudos for destroying pulling the fangs of the Austrian navy. The first one to admit that would be Craddock. All the RN really did was finish off ships which had been previously wrote down in action with the French.
I apologize for making it appear to be a Brit wank. That was not my intent. the French performed admirably in a tough situation and the first to admit it will be the RN.
The French stood their ground, and did their level best and more. Not wanting to give too much away, but the French will have a big part to play later in the war and they will do their part admirably, and in doing so they will more than offset any perceived 'rescued by the British' opinions.
... and Micheal, everyone is entitled to their opinion ... last I heard free thought is not a randomly occurring process here, and while I may not agree with you on every occasion or you with me, we should bear in mind that the opinion of the individual is a big part of free people everywhere, and we all should be respectful of that ... your comments are always welcome, as are anyone else's.
... and just for the record, there will be a few things happening in the opening posts of the various theaters that may look 'out there' or even 'wankish'. But there will be a certain amount of karmic kick back
.... the cows will come home ...
I apologize for making it appear to be a Brit wank. That was not my intent. the French performed admirably in a tough situation and the first to admit it will be the RN.
The French stood their ground, and did their level best and more. Not wanting to give too much away, but the French will have a big part to play later in the war and they will do their part admirably, and in doing so they will more than offset any perceived 'rescued by the British' opinions.
... and Micheal, everyone is entitled to their opinion ... last I heard free thought is not a randomly occurring process here, and while I may not agree with you on every occasion or you with me, we should bear in mind that the opinion of the individual is a big part of free people everywhere, and we all should be respectful of that ... your comments are always welcome, as are anyone else's.
... and just for the record, there will be a few things happening in the opening posts of the various theaters that may look 'out there' or even 'wankish'. But there will be a certain amount of karmic kick back
.... the cows will come home ...
I really wouldn't worry about that. As the various complaining posters admitted all they really wanted to see was dead British sailors (which is a bit sick when you think about it) so you are never going to keep them happy.
We didn't want to see dead British sailors.
We merely wanted to sea sunk British Battleships. For example have the Colossus sink on its way back to Malta, with most of the crew surviving the sinking. That's all. A Battleship can sink without great loss of life, look at OTLs Szent Istvan.
But hey, I enjoy the TL as it is too. It's just common in AH boards to have the RN stay triumphant.
Yes but there are still some British ships afloat, so that doesn't count. Basically unless you have the entire RN sink some people will never be happy, even then they'll probably complain about the fact the Admiralty building didn't spontaneously explode.
This isn't about facts or logic, just some rather unpleasant bigotry. There's no point trying to understand it, let alone argue with it.
The Great War at Sea
Miscellaneous Addendum and Erata
Here’s something I pulled out of my butt a while back … for your perusal.
This is in no way complete, but it’s the beginnings of another project and may prove to be of some interest to some of you.
Comparative gunnery results at the Battle of Jutland
1st, 2nd & 4th BS
Shells fired = 1539
Hits obtained = 57
Percerntage = 3.70%
5th BS
Shells fired = 1099
Hit obtained = 29
Percentage = 2.63%
1st & 2nd BCS
Shells fired = 1469
Hits obtained = 21
Percentage = 1.42%
3rd BCS
Shells fired = 373
Hits obtained =16
Percentage = 4.28%
Heavy Shells fired by RN = 4480
Hits obtained by RN = 123
High Seas Fleet
Battleships
Shells fired = 1927
Hits obtained = 57
Percentage = 2.9%
1st SG
Shells fired = 1670
Hits obtained = 65
Percentage = 3.8%
Heavy shells expended by HSF = 3591
Hits obtained = 122
While just 3 of the hits included in the HSF BC total are on the British CA’s, 31 of the hits recorded by the HSF BB’s were in fact hits on British CA’s
So when looking at comparative hit totals on a basis of BB/BC vs. BB//BC the HSF obtained 88 hits compared to the RN’s 123.
This sets out a few interesting ideas.
Comparing the averages of the various groups of warships involved we see that with the exception of Beatty’s battle cruisers, there is not a lot to choose from in difference.
Another interesting note is that over half of the hits obtained by the German battleships (31 out of 57) were in fact recorded on 3 British Armoured cruisers at a reasonably close range.
What is possibly of more interest is that HMS Black Prince absorbed 12 heavy hits before succumbing while HMS Warrior was struck 15 times. The other 7 hits were on HMS Defence. While HMS Defence and HMS Black Prince both were destroyed by magazine detonations (which more than anything is best explained by their lack of armour considering the calibre of shells hitting them), HMS Warrior managed to take in 15 heavy calibre hits and still limp away from the fight to sink a few hours later. It raises some questions as to the perceived frailty of armoured cruisers in general and those of the RN in particular.
The two largest contributing factors relating to the catastrophic loss of the British vessels at Jutland were both based in the powder charges used by the RN. The first was simply its volatility and related speed of burn which caused massive over pressure which in turn allowed for flash burning. Without the ability to vent to the outside atmosphere this flash phenomena would follow the path of least resistance which sadly usually meant other areas of the gun mounting including the magazines.
The other factor was how the charges were stored and handled, which was for the most part poor. This was particularly so in the British battle cruisers, where some of the established safety features were actually removed to increase the rate of fire. The primary reason for this not simply for increasing the rate of fire for that alone. Rather it was to make allowance for the lack of gunnery training available to the Battle cruisers when they were based at Rothsay.
Another oft overlooked reason for the overall poor gunnery for the British was visibility constraints in both the ‘Run to the south’ and the ‘Run to the north’. In both instances the High Seas Fleet had the weather gauge advantage, allowing them much more accurate shooting. In instances of clear visibility the gunnery accuracy of the RN ships increased markedly as was proved by HMS Iron Duke delivering 7 hits out of 43 shots fired on SMS Konig during a period of clear visibility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
**A note on the Invincible and Indefatigable class battle cruisers **
The two groups of ‘I’ class battle cruisers were only protected to a level of armoured cruisers. In fact, when the original Invincible class joined the fleet they were classed as armoured cruisers. It wasn’t until after that they were re-classified as battle cruisers.
Previous until that time armoured cruisers filled the role of heavy scouting and the fast wing in the worlds fleets, as well as providing a source of ‘expedient ships of the line’ in certain situations. The general success of the armoured cruisers in the Russo-Japanese War seemed to prove this out.
The ‘I’ classes were an evolutionary step up to an ‘Big Gun’ philosophy example of the previous generation of armoured cruisers. The one action where they were used in a more traditional armoured cruiser role (the Falklands battle) they did yeoman service.
At Jutland however, these ships, along with the armoured cruisers, were in a position they were never designed to face. While having close to comparable offensive potential in the case of the ‘I’ classes, their defensive protection was in no way comparable.
While the collective catastrophic loss of these ships was shocking at the time, and caused great debate ever since, what always has amazed me is that more didn’t meet the same fate given the circumstances. The combination of the armour (which was only proof against mid calibre weaponry),the volatility of the British cordite, the removal of safety systems and poor ammunition storage and handling essentially made them floating bombs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Splendid Cats
The newer British battle cruisers were substantially better armoured than the previous ‘I’ classes, and while one of them, HMS Queen Mary, was lost to a magazine detonation, probably through a combination of the cordite, removal of safety systems and ammo storage, the survivors took a substantial beating and still survived.
---------------------------------------------------
Hits on British surviving British battle cruisers and battle cruisers
HMS Lion
13 - 12”
HMS Princess Royal
8 -12”
1 - 11”
HMS Tiger
14-11”
HMS New Zealand
1 - 11”
Barham
5 -12”
1 -11”
Malaya
7 - 12”
Warspite
13-12”
2 - 11”
Colossus
2 - 11”
From looking at the results of the hits on the British ships if I was a cynical person, I’d say the battle results were all down to luck. If I was a person with a bias for the High Seas Fleet, I’d be saying it was poor luck that there wasn’t more British ships blowing up. If I was leaning more to the British I’d be saying that it had been unlucky that the German shells had found our magazines.
The fact remains that the High Seas Fleet managed to sink 3 BC’s and 3 CA’s. But out of the ships sunk 5 of them had the poorest protection in the Grand fleet, whose armour was in no way comparable to the standards of even second rate battle ships, they were essentially armoured cruisers if one was to look at their protection.
In the case of the Queen Mary the Germans did account for a much better protected British ship, and she did explode with terminal result. But none of the other British Battle cruisers or battleships hit faced the same fate. In the survivors the British system of protection, as troubled as it was, did work.
Miscellaneous Addendum and Erata
Here’s something I pulled out of my butt a while back … for your perusal.
This is in no way complete, but it’s the beginnings of another project and may prove to be of some interest to some of you.
Comparative gunnery results at the Battle of Jutland
1st, 2nd & 4th BS
Shells fired = 1539
Hits obtained = 57
Percerntage = 3.70%
5th BS
Shells fired = 1099
Hit obtained = 29
Percentage = 2.63%
1st & 2nd BCS
Shells fired = 1469
Hits obtained = 21
Percentage = 1.42%
3rd BCS
Shells fired = 373
Hits obtained =16
Percentage = 4.28%
Heavy Shells fired by RN = 4480
Hits obtained by RN = 123
High Seas Fleet
Battleships
Shells fired = 1927
Hits obtained = 57
Percentage = 2.9%
1st SG
Shells fired = 1670
Hits obtained = 65
Percentage = 3.8%
Heavy shells expended by HSF = 3591
Hits obtained = 122
While just 3 of the hits included in the HSF BC total are on the British CA’s, 31 of the hits recorded by the HSF BB’s were in fact hits on British CA’s
So when looking at comparative hit totals on a basis of BB/BC vs. BB//BC the HSF obtained 88 hits compared to the RN’s 123.
This sets out a few interesting ideas.
Comparing the averages of the various groups of warships involved we see that with the exception of Beatty’s battle cruisers, there is not a lot to choose from in difference.
Another interesting note is that over half of the hits obtained by the German battleships (31 out of 57) were in fact recorded on 3 British Armoured cruisers at a reasonably close range.
What is possibly of more interest is that HMS Black Prince absorbed 12 heavy hits before succumbing while HMS Warrior was struck 15 times. The other 7 hits were on HMS Defence. While HMS Defence and HMS Black Prince both were destroyed by magazine detonations (which more than anything is best explained by their lack of armour considering the calibre of shells hitting them), HMS Warrior managed to take in 15 heavy calibre hits and still limp away from the fight to sink a few hours later. It raises some questions as to the perceived frailty of armoured cruisers in general and those of the RN in particular.
The two largest contributing factors relating to the catastrophic loss of the British vessels at Jutland were both based in the powder charges used by the RN. The first was simply its volatility and related speed of burn which caused massive over pressure which in turn allowed for flash burning. Without the ability to vent to the outside atmosphere this flash phenomena would follow the path of least resistance which sadly usually meant other areas of the gun mounting including the magazines.
The other factor was how the charges were stored and handled, which was for the most part poor. This was particularly so in the British battle cruisers, where some of the established safety features were actually removed to increase the rate of fire. The primary reason for this not simply for increasing the rate of fire for that alone. Rather it was to make allowance for the lack of gunnery training available to the Battle cruisers when they were based at Rothsay.
Another oft overlooked reason for the overall poor gunnery for the British was visibility constraints in both the ‘Run to the south’ and the ‘Run to the north’. In both instances the High Seas Fleet had the weather gauge advantage, allowing them much more accurate shooting. In instances of clear visibility the gunnery accuracy of the RN ships increased markedly as was proved by HMS Iron Duke delivering 7 hits out of 43 shots fired on SMS Konig during a period of clear visibility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
**A note on the Invincible and Indefatigable class battle cruisers **
The two groups of ‘I’ class battle cruisers were only protected to a level of armoured cruisers. In fact, when the original Invincible class joined the fleet they were classed as armoured cruisers. It wasn’t until after that they were re-classified as battle cruisers.
Previous until that time armoured cruisers filled the role of heavy scouting and the fast wing in the worlds fleets, as well as providing a source of ‘expedient ships of the line’ in certain situations. The general success of the armoured cruisers in the Russo-Japanese War seemed to prove this out.
The ‘I’ classes were an evolutionary step up to an ‘Big Gun’ philosophy example of the previous generation of armoured cruisers. The one action where they were used in a more traditional armoured cruiser role (the Falklands battle) they did yeoman service.
At Jutland however, these ships, along with the armoured cruisers, were in a position they were never designed to face. While having close to comparable offensive potential in the case of the ‘I’ classes, their defensive protection was in no way comparable.
While the collective catastrophic loss of these ships was shocking at the time, and caused great debate ever since, what always has amazed me is that more didn’t meet the same fate given the circumstances. The combination of the armour (which was only proof against mid calibre weaponry),the volatility of the British cordite, the removal of safety systems and poor ammunition storage and handling essentially made them floating bombs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Splendid Cats
The newer British battle cruisers were substantially better armoured than the previous ‘I’ classes, and while one of them, HMS Queen Mary, was lost to a magazine detonation, probably through a combination of the cordite, removal of safety systems and ammo storage, the survivors took a substantial beating and still survived.
---------------------------------------------------
Hits on British surviving British battle cruisers and battle cruisers
HMS Lion
13 - 12”
HMS Princess Royal
8 -12”
1 - 11”
HMS Tiger
14-11”
HMS New Zealand
1 - 11”
Barham
5 -12”
1 -11”
Malaya
7 - 12”
Warspite
13-12”
2 - 11”
Colossus
2 - 11”
From looking at the results of the hits on the British ships if I was a cynical person, I’d say the battle results were all down to luck. If I was a person with a bias for the High Seas Fleet, I’d be saying it was poor luck that there wasn’t more British ships blowing up. If I was leaning more to the British I’d be saying that it had been unlucky that the German shells had found our magazines.
The fact remains that the High Seas Fleet managed to sink 3 BC’s and 3 CA’s. But out of the ships sunk 5 of them had the poorest protection in the Grand fleet, whose armour was in no way comparable to the standards of even second rate battle ships, they were essentially armoured cruisers if one was to look at their protection.
In the case of the Queen Mary the Germans did account for a much better protected British ship, and she did explode with terminal result. But none of the other British Battle cruisers or battleships hit faced the same fate. In the survivors the British system of protection, as troubled as it was, did work.
Would you like us to send them a strongly worded letter of complaint on behalf of your readership?
Damned unreasonable of them if you ask me.
I didn't know the armoured cruisers took so many hits before being lost. In most books they just say that the Germans opened fire on the Defence and Black Prince and then they blew up.
The behaviour of Arbuthnot in trying to destroy the already disabled Wiesbaden seems to have been very unprofessional and cost the RN two armoured cruisers and gifted the Germans two ships that they could boast about in the post battle reports.
It also helped the HSF stats that they withdrew as soon as they encountered the main body of the Grand Fleet. My guess is that the stats would look dramatically different if the main fleet action had lasted another 10 minutes.
sharlin
Banned
The ACs took a real lashing at relatively close ranges I belive it was no more than 11000 yards to about 8000 yards and yeah they took a hammering. Arbuthnots behaviour might be explained because once he had some german light cruisers under his guns earlier in the war and didn't take action because the flagship didn't. So he seems to have replaced dogged obedience with raw agression.
The German fleet took a fair lashing in both its encounters with the Grand Fleet. The leading battlesquadron was especially targetted but when the Germans came back for their second try they took less damage but the Germans formation started to crumble as ships took damage and were having to manouver to avoid incoming fire as well as speeding up and slowing down to try and hold formation.
The RNs gunnery even the Grand Fleet who had regular gunnery practice was nothing to write home about, the sheer volume of ships firing made spotting fall of shot a bugger as well as the constant problems with shells failing to detonate or detonating too early. If the RN had more stable and reliable shells the Germans would have probably lost more ships (at least the Sydlitz and Von Der Tan as well as the Koenig).