And who would accept that when the king of France is undeniably legitimate and senior claimant
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Things Go A Bit Differently in France (names in bold are names by which they're "called" en famille):
Louis, Dauphin de France (1729-1765) 1m: 1745 Maria Teresa of Spain (1726-1746); 2m: 1747 Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767)
[1] Elisabeth of Württemberg gives birth to a short-lived boy instead of a girl, hence the delay in Franz II finding a new wife
[2] born on the feast of Saint John the Baptist. From birth he is "heir designate" to the fortune of his uncle, the comte de Provence (hence the title)
[3] named for Antoinette's father, François Étienne
[4] named for the prince de Condé
[5] figure her father was resident at Versailles at the Revolution, no Revolution probably means they stay put until his brother dies. Also, by the time Normandie marries, he's down two places already
[6] Louis XVI doesn't reverse Louis XV's plan to buy the estates off the duc du Maine's heirs, and, when his second son is born, many of those estates (like Aumale and Eu). As a result, the Orléans are deprived of a portion of their inheritance
[7] maybe born on the feast of St. Margaret of Antioch? I'm running out of names. Or maybe Emperor Paul for Pauline? Or Hercule was a big baby?
[8] twin sister of the duchesse d'Enghien (Karoline of Baden was betrothed to the duc d'Enghien before the Bastille fell). And before anyone calls the kids ASB, Angoulême's health issues (mostly PTSD-related) are only from after the Revolution
[9] twin of Ponthieu. Name is for her mother (Katharina Amalie).
[10] I have this idea that Orléans is made to surrender some of the Penthièvre inheritance as dowry for Adélaïde. As for Philippe Égalité, well Adélaïde's probably the only one of his kids that's getting married (I can't think who OTL Louis Philippe would be paired with here)
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Louis, Dauphin de France (1729-1765) 1m: 1745 Maria Teresa of Spain (1726-1746); 2m: 1747 Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767)
[1m.] Marie Thérèse (1746-1748)
[2m.] Marie Zéphyrine (1750-1755)
[2m.] Louis Joseph Xavier, Duc de Bourgogne (1751-1761)
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1752)
[2m.] Xavier Marie Joseph, Duc d'Aquitaine (1753-1754)
[2m.] Louis XVI, King of France [1774-1806] (1754-1806) m: 1770 Maria Antonia of Austria (1755-1819)
Marie Thérèse Charlotte, Madame Royal (b.1778) m: 1793 [1] Franz II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1768)
Maria Luise Theresia (b.1795)
Karl Ludwig, Archduke of Austria (b.1798)
Leopold August, Archduke of Austria (b.1801)
Maria Antonia Franziska (b.1802)
Franz Joseph Xaver, Archduke of Austria (b.1803)
Elisabeth Amalie Wilhelmine (b.1804)
Maria Anna Karoline (b.1805)
Stillborn Daughter (1806)
Stillborn Son (1807)
Ludwig Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria (b.1808)
Louis XVII Joseph, King of France [from 1806] (b.1781) m: 1795 Maria Amelia of Naples (b.1782)
Louis Ferdinand, Dauphin de France (b.1799)
Charles Jean Baptiste [2], Duc d'Anjou (b.1800)
Marie Antoinette Thérèse (b.1803)
Louise Marie Amélie (b.1805)
Louis François Étienne [3], Duc d'Alençon (b.1807)
Charlotte Marie Clémentine (b.1809)
Louis Henri [4] Léopold, Duc de Vendôme (b.1813)
Marie Élisabeth Félicité (b.1815)
Charles Louis, Duc de Normandie (b.1785) m: 1803 Auguste Amalie of Bavaria [5] (b.1788)
Charles Joseph Louis, Duc d'Aumale [6] (b.1805)
Marie Thérèse Auguste (b.1807)
Marie Louise Marguerite [7] (b.1807)
Louis Hercule [7] Auguste, Comte d'Eu (b.1809)
Marie Anne Amélie "Émilie" (b.1812)
Sophie Hélène Béatrice (1786-1786)
[2m.] Louis Stanislas, Duc d'Anjou, d'Alençon et de Vendôme, dit Comte de Provence (1755-1824) m: 1771 Giuseppina of Savoy (1753-1810)
[2m.] Charles Philippe, Duc d'Auvergne et de Mercoeur, dit Comte d'Artois (b.1757) m: 1773 Maria Teresa of Savoy (1756-1805)
Louis Antoine, Duc d'Angoulême (b.1775) m: 1790 Amalie of Baden [8] (b.1776)
Charles Félix René, Comte de Ponthieu (b.1795)
Marie Amélie Catherine [9] (b.1795)
Louis Antoine Henri, Comte d'Alais (1796-1797)
Marie Thérèse Pauline "Paulette" [7] (b.1801)
Anne Caroline Gabrielle (b.1802)
Sophie (1776-1783)
Charles, Duc de Berri (b.1778) m: 1794 Adélaïde d'Orléans (b.1777)
Louise "Louison" Amélie Clémentine (b.1795)
Charles Alexandre Amédée, Prince de Lamballe [10] (b.1797)
Marie Françoise Philippine (b.1799)
Marie Thérèse (1783)
[2m.] Marie Clothilde (b.1759) m: 1775 Carlo Emanuele IV, King of Sardinia (1751-1819)
[2m.] Élisabeth Philippine Marie Hélène (b.1764)
[1] Elisabeth of Württemberg gives birth to a short-lived boy instead of a girl, hence the delay in Franz II finding a new wife
[2] born on the feast of Saint John the Baptist. From birth he is "heir designate" to the fortune of his uncle, the comte de Provence (hence the title)
[3] named for Antoinette's father, François Étienne
[4] named for the prince de Condé
[5] figure her father was resident at Versailles at the Revolution, no Revolution probably means they stay put until his brother dies. Also, by the time Normandie marries, he's down two places already
[6] Louis XVI doesn't reverse Louis XV's plan to buy the estates off the duc du Maine's heirs, and, when his second son is born, many of those estates (like Aumale and Eu). As a result, the Orléans are deprived of a portion of their inheritance
[7] maybe born on the feast of St. Margaret of Antioch? I'm running out of names. Or maybe Emperor Paul for Pauline? Or Hercule was a big baby?
[8] twin sister of the duchesse d'Enghien (Karoline of Baden was betrothed to the duc d'Enghien before the Bastille fell). And before anyone calls the kids ASB, Angoulême's health issues (mostly PTSD-related) are only from after the Revolution
[9] twin of Ponthieu. Name is for her mother (Katharina Amalie).
[10] I have this idea that Orléans is made to surrender some of the Penthièvre inheritance as dowry for Adélaïde. As for Philippe Égalité, well Adélaïde's probably the only one of his kids that's getting married (I can't think who OTL Louis Philippe would be paired with here)
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@Kellan Sullivan , an interesting lineage idea! I think most of the marriages work well (balancing Marie Antoinette's closeness with Naples, the traditional Franco-Bavarian ties and a few domestic matches). However, there are a few things I'm unsure about or would like clarification on.
1. Why Franz II/Madame Royale? I mean Marie Antoinette wasn't that close to Leopold II, and the Franco-Austrian Alliance was pretty cold by the late 1780s. Moreover, Madame Royale had been occasionally matched to various Spanish Infantes in the 1780s, and during the revolutionary period Louis XVI apparently wanted her to marry the future Fernando VII (though that may have been a way to get her out of France). I'd personally go with a surviving Carlos Clemente or Carlos Domingo as MT's husband, though that's just my inclination to avoid too many first cousin matches.
2. I don't think Charles Jean Baptiste (a little close to Carlo XIV of Sweden name wise) would be able to be titled Due d'Anjou. Legally the title belonged to Monsieur and I can't think of an example of a nephew holding a courtesy title from an uncle. I could be wrong though. Moreover, what fortune is Normandie getting here? The Bourbon-Maines? Am asking because it feels odd that Louis XVI and MA would provide an apanage their grandson but not their second son.
3. I wonder about Louis Henri's title. While Vendôme is a pretty important title in the history of the Bourbon dynasty, it was last held by an illegitimate branch of the Royal House. IDK if that would cause the title to be considered "lesser". TBH, that's a problem I've ran into in my own TL plan for an ALT Louis XVI.
4. Lastly, there's no real way or reason to force the Duc d'Orléans to give Mademoiselle a large portion of the Penthiévre fortune. If anything, that would devolve to one of the Duc and Duchesse's younger sons (Montpensier or Beaujolais). If your wanting the Penthiévre fortune for Berri, then you're best bet is to have the Prince de Lamballe never catch syphilis, and have a daughter with Marie Thérèse de Savoie circa 1773-1775. That should be an OK enough age difference between the two, with the vast fortune balancing out any other concerns (MA's friendship with the Princesse de Lamballe can smooth out any issue with Berri marrying a Légitimé lineage).
1. Why Franz II/Madame Royale? I mean Marie Antoinette wasn't that close to Leopold II, and the Franco-Austrian Alliance was pretty cold by the late 1780s. Moreover, Madame Royale had been occasionally matched to various Spanish Infantes in the 1780s, and during the revolutionary period Louis XVI apparently wanted her to marry the future Fernando VII (though that may have been a way to get her out of France). I'd personally go with a surviving Carlos Clemente or Carlos Domingo as MT's husband, though that's just my inclination to avoid too many first cousin matches.
2. I don't think Charles Jean Baptiste (a little close to Carlo XIV of Sweden name wise) would be able to be titled Due d'Anjou. Legally the title belonged to Monsieur and I can't think of an example of a nephew holding a courtesy title from an uncle. I could be wrong though. Moreover, what fortune is Normandie getting here? The Bourbon-Maines? Am asking because it feels odd that Louis XVI and MA would provide an apanage their grandson but not their second son.
3. I wonder about Louis Henri's title. While Vendôme is a pretty important title in the history of the Bourbon dynasty, it was last held by an illegitimate branch of the Royal House. IDK if that would cause the title to be considered "lesser". TBH, that's a problem I've ran into in my own TL plan for an ALT Louis XVI.
4. Lastly, there's no real way or reason to force the Duc d'Orléans to give Mademoiselle a large portion of the Penthiévre fortune. If anything, that would devolve to one of the Duc and Duchesse's younger sons (Montpensier or Beaujolais). If your wanting the Penthiévre fortune for Berri, then you're best bet is to have the Prince de Lamballe never catch syphilis, and have a daughter with Marie Thérèse de Savoie circa 1773-1775. That should be an OK enough age difference between the two, with the vast fortune balancing out any other concerns (MA's friendship with the Princesse de Lamballe can smooth out any issue with Berri marrying a Légitimé lineage).
While Antoinette was never close to Leopold as she was to Joseph, the eldest daughter of France is a far better wife for the emperor than the eldest daughter of Naples.
Normandie gets the Maine fortune thanks to Louis XVI not canceling the act by which the comte d'Eu sold the lands to the crown. Maybe Louis XV lives a few months longer and the sale goes through or maybe someone points out that the Orléans aren't gonna change their spots.
Louis XVIII held the title of "duc du Maine" and "duc de Vendôme" OTL, so I don't particularly see it as a problem, particularly for a second or third son.
For the overlap of the title, Louis XVIII is already dead at the time of the family tree date, so I figured his titles (Anjou, Vendôme, Alençon and Maine) being split up isn't unlikely
Technically, the king can force a trade in lands. Henri iv to Louis XV all did it with the cadet lines. The key is just to have something the person wants more. Perhaps the king offers to arrange a second-tier royal match for Louis Philippe in exchange for Orléans surrendering part of the fortune. There's also the fact that Penthièvre can will parts of his fortune to his granddaughter or have a portion set aside for Lamballe as widow's lands. He didn't like Égalite and Louis Philippe's mom was part of Antoinette's/Lamballe's circle, not her husband's
Ferdinand II m. Germaine de Foix
1. Blanca of Aragon (1509-1560) m. 1526 Charles V (1500-1558)
- Philip II (1527-1598)
- Ferdinand (1529-1588)
- John (1530-1600)
- Charles (1532-1587)
- Maria (1533-1603)
- Joanna (1536-1611)
- Isabella (1538-1593)
- Margaret (1540-1600)
- Eleanor (1543-1609)
- Catherine (1545-1600)
- Blanca (1547-1616)
Germaine de Foix p. Charles V
1. Isabella of Castile (1518-1570) m. 1530 Francis I of France (1494-1547)
- Philip (1533-1603)
- Joan (1536-1599) m. 1551 Edward VI of England (1537-1553)
I need help arranging matches
1. Blanca of Aragon (1509-1560) m. 1526 Charles V (1500-1558)
- Philip II (1527-1598)
- Ferdinand (1529-1588)
- John (1530-1600)
- Charles (1532-1587)
- Maria (1533-1603)
- Joanna (1536-1611)
- Isabella (1538-1593)
- Margaret (1540-1600)
- Eleanor (1543-1609)
- Catherine (1545-1600)
- Blanca (1547-1616)
Germaine de Foix p. Charles V
1. Isabella of Castile (1518-1570) m. 1530 Francis I of France (1494-1547)
- Philip (1533-1603)
- Joan (1536-1599) m. 1551 Edward VI of England (1537-1553)
I need help arranging matches
What does "p." mean? Surely Charles V is not marrying his step-grandmother?
Partner. They had sex, but they're not married. (This happened IOTL)
Charles wouldn't marry his half-aunt, what would he get out of that? He's more likely to marry her off to some foreign ruler (the elector of Saxony, James V of Scotland, the duke of Milan, maybe Francis I of France) like he did with his nieces otl. Although I guess it could be a love match but it's still unlikely.
Charles and Germaine's daughter was a bastard, there's no way she's marrying the king of France. The best she could hope for is an Italian duke and not a major one.
No way in the hell who either of this matches would happen, specially NOT in the same universe
Charles forced Francis into a humiliating enough second match IOTL...
Eleanor was an archduchess. She was the appropriate rank to marry the king of France, Isabella wasn't.
Eleanor was a PERFECTLY SUITABLE bride AND Francis was the one who sought initially the match. The peace was humiliating NOT the match with Eleanor, who was still 27 years old at their betrothal
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Isabella would also be archduchess as the daughter of an archduke though?
Eh...she wasn't. That's not even remotely possible as she was a bastard by birth therefore had no legal right to the title of Infanta.
It doesn't change the fact that Isabella was never formally legitimized and if she was ever referred to or adressed as an Infanta it was certainly in manner of a courtesy title holding no legal value at all, meaning that despite having a decent amount of royal blood and good connections to the French, Spanish and Navarrese ruling families, she's still of illegitimate birth and unsuitable rank to marry Francis.
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