Herald Herdrada, King of England

[UkrainianCheese]

In our timeline Herald Herdrada lost at the Battle of Stanford Bridge. In this new timeline, the King of England and his forces get slowed down by a rainstorm, allowing Herald and his forces to be more prepared. Herald's army wins at Stanford Bridge and becomes the King of England. The storm that slowed down the former Kings army also destroys Williams invasion fleet before it leaves the port, killing William in the process. Herald moves the capital of his empire to modern day London, causing the people of Norway and Denmark to be mad and revolt. Norway and Denmark become independent from Herald Herdrada's rule. The modern English language is now more influenced by the Norwegian and Danish dialects instead of French and the English royal bloodline is more Norwegian.

 

[Mikestone8]

Herald moves the capitl of his empire to modern day London, causing the people of Norway and Denmark to be mad and revolt. Norway and Denmark become independent from Herald Herdrada's rule.

He never ruled Denmark. And iirc his plan was to leave his elder son to rule Norway. No doubt the Norwegian Jarls would try their luck and reassert themselves in his absence, but OTL they seem to have been ok to keep his dynasty.

 

[Atterdag]

I've never really liked the 'random storm delays/sinks the norman/norwegian/english fleet/army' - it's used a lot in alternate 1066 scenarios but to me it feels like alternate weather belongs in the same category as alternate evolution or alternate geography. Not that it matters terribly much, there's a million ways a medieval fleet or army could be delayed, lost or sunk even without it.

He never ruled Denmark. And iirc his plan was to leave his elder son to rule Norway. No doubt the Norwegian Jarls would try their luck and reassert themselves in his absence, but OTL they seem to have been ok to keep his dynasty.

Very true, though it's also likely he'd give conquering Denmark another go after taking England, and with the additional resources from England he may succeed this time. Especially if he lives another ten years and can join in the succession after Sweyn II dies.

 

[UkrainianCheese]

He never ruled Denmark. And iirc his plan was to leave his elder son to rule Norway. No doubt the Norwegian Jarls would try their luck and reassert themselves in his absence, but OTL they seem to have been ok to keep his dynasty.

In Herald's Wikipedia it says that he managed to assert his claims on Denmark in 1064.

 

[Trey_the_Federalist]

as for the actual alternate history, hardrada would likely not conquer scotland, or ireland, so in the time line, the is to United Kingdom of Great Britain, but, there would be a United Nordic Kingdom(s). maybe not in Hardrada's time, but eventually, as more nordic settlers come to england, and influence the language, all the Nordic kingdoms, would be ruled by the same person, and eventually there would be a king who standardizes the laws. eventialy, the kingdoms unite, and even tho they were christianized, nordic/viking culture would remain in these kingdoms even into the modern day. how this affects the latter history, i can say.

 

[Atterdag]

In Herald's Wikipedia it says that he managed to assert his claims on Denmark in 1064.

That’s not correct, whatever Wikipedia says. He defeated Sweyn II repeatedly in battle and devastated much of the Danish coast, but he could never dislodge Sweyn from the throne.

 

[Mecanimetales]

Hardrada would likely restore the North Sea Empire of Canute, but the cultural difference between both Anglo-Saxons and Norwegians would cause the same thing; the kingdom would be soon disintegrated after the death of Hardrada.

I don't think that Hardrada would really do massive changes in cultural means in England (not as the Normans did) since he was more a warrior than a ruler, and he would instead launch himself to conquer Denmark and maybe start prospering trade routes across the Rus rivers (Dnieper, etc).

 

[Mikestone8]

In Herald's Wikipedia it says that he managed to assert his claims on Denmark in 1064.

Actually that was the year his war with Denmark finally ended - in victory for *Sweyn*

 

[Mikestone8]

as for the actual alternate history, hardrada would likely not conquer scotland, or ireland

Agree abt Ireland, but Scotland would be in a tight spot,with the Orkneys, Shetlands and Hebrides ruled by a King of Norway who now ruled England as well.

Another possibility - Kings of NorwayEngland might try to bring Iceland under their control, perhaps triggering a sizeable exodus to Vinland.

 

[Atterdag]

Hardrada would likely restore the North Sea Empire of Canute, but the cultural difference between both Anglo-Saxons and Norwegians would cause the same thing; the kingdom would be soon disintegrated after the death of Hardrada.

I really don't think the fall of the north sea empire can be chalked up to 'cultural differences' between Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons, whether in Canute or Harald's times. In Canute's time he purpusfully divided his lands between his sons, they each faced domestic and foreign opposition and claimants, as well as having the misfortunes of dying young. His empire collapsed because 11th century monarchies are frail, and after Harald's death the same is likely to occur. There is no shortage of Saxon or Norman claimants to the English throne once Harald is dead, unless he can manage to hunt most of them down - unlikely, Norway is likely to remain under his family's control though some of them will probably kill eachother over the throne, if he does conquer Denmark there are dozens of sons of Sweyn Estridsen who could seek support in Germany and Sweden to retake their father's throne. All in all, not a recipe for a long-lasting Empire, though having little to do with 'cultural differences'.

 

[Mikestone8]

I really don't think the fall of the north sea empire can be chalked up to 'cultural differences' between Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons, whether in Canute or Harald's times.

Indeed the languages were very close. In King Harald's Saga it is mentioned that Norsemen escaping after Stamford Bridge were able to talk to local Northumbrians. They were recognised as foreigners by their accent, but were apparently able to communicate with little if any trouble. Sounds as if Norse and Northumbrian were at least as close as Spanish and Portuguese.

In Canute's time he purpusfully divided his lands between his sons, they each faced domestic and foreign opposition and claimants, as well as having the misfortunes of dying young. His empire collapsed because 11th century monarchies are frail, and after Harald's death the same is likely to occur. There is no shortage of Saxon or Norman claimants to the English throne once Harald is dead, unless he can manage to hunt most of them down - unlikely, Norway is likely to remain under his family's control though some of them will probably kill eachother over the throne, if he does conquer Denmark there are dozens of sons of Sweyn Estridsen who could seek support in Germany and Sweden to retake their father's throne. All in all, not a recipe for a long-lasting Empire, though having little to do with 'cultural differences'.

Also, Iirc Hardrada was 51 when he died at Stamford Bridge - by contemporary standards an old man. So his reign may well be short. Perhaps his son Olaf Hyrre is remembered as the"big name" of hiis dynasty, a "Canute" to his father's Sweyn Forkbeard.

 

[JanWellem]

Indeed the languages were very close. In King Harald's Saga it is mentioned that Norsemen escaping after Stamford Bridge were able to talk to local Northumbrians. They were recognised as foreigners by their accent, but were apparently able to communicate with little if any trouble. Sounds as if Norse and Northumbrian were at least as close as Spanish and Portuguese.

Here's a reconstructed conversation between a late 10th century Mercian and a late 10th century Danish settler in the Danelaw to give an idea how the respective languages sounded:

 

[Atterdag]

Also, Iirc Hardrada was 51 when he died at Stamford Bridge - by contemporary standards an old man. So his reign may well be short. Perhaps his son Olaf Hyrre is remembered as the"big name" of hiis dynasty, a "Canute" to his father's Sweyn Forkbeard.

Quite possibly Harald conquers England, fairly soon after dies, one son gets England and the other Norway, one kills another unifying the realms, by this time Sweyn Estridsen has died and whoever came out on top as Anglo-Norwegian King uses the chance to push his claim to Denmark.

Or if we want to push the Canute metaphor further. Harald dies, another claimaint is elected King in England, one of Harald's sons (most likely Magnus) agrees to support Olaf's claim to England to not share Norway, Olaf conquers England, Magnus dies and is succeeded by his brother, then Olaf pushes his claim to Denmark.

 

[cloistered scholar]

Hardrada was interested in finding a new way to get to the orient. Before he invaded England, he had personally led an expedition into the White sea, looking for a northeast passage.

If he has England he might send people west to find a northwest passage. Perhaps more migrants leave for Vinland as well.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Maybe Harald Hardrada's name would finally be properly rendered by English chroniclers as "Harold Hardrede", as it should be.

 

[DanMcCollum]

One of these says, I'm going to have to write up the timeline I've always planned on doing around this theme. And I've been saying that for years, LOL.

Anyway, I'll leave you with my pet theory. Harald had left Magnus a King of Norway and, as a result upon his death, Olaf becomes King of England. But Magnus dies early as he did in OTL, leading the whole Northsea Empire to be consolidated under Olaf for another generation.

Now, Olaf in OTL was known for his largely peaceful reign as well as as a city builder. In the ATL, which land under his rule has the most developed urban tradition and experience? England of course. And so I foresee him founding cities, much as he did in OTL, and inviting English Burgers in to help settle them. This creates a situation where the English eventually hold a position throughout Scandinavia akin to those of Germans in Central and Eastern Europe; urban dwellers and merchants who reside primarily in cities (this is a role than in OTL, the English would also initially hold in parts of Ireland; especially in th Pale though not limited to it). This means that England, or the English at least, become the glue which holds together the north sea trading network, even once the individual kingdoms of the Empire inevitably get spun off to second and third sons, and firmly aligns England with the Scandinavian region (though it's trade connections in the Low Lands will, of course, continue).

 

[Atterdag]

One of these says, I'm going to have to write up the timeline I've always planned on doing around this theme. And I've been saying that for years, LOL.

I've seen several TLs on this theme started, but none of them got very far as far as I know. I'd love to read yours if you did write it, you have some interesting ideas it seems. The concept of an England-aligned Scandinavia is very fascinating, although it will be wrought with difficulties.

 

[DanMcCollum]

I've seen several TLs on this theme started, but none of them got very far as far as I know. I'd love to read yours if you did write it, you have some interesting ideas it seems. The concept of an England-aligned Scandinavia is very fascinating, although it will be wrought with difficulties.

I still have a LOT of research to do on the subject - though It's one that has fascinated me for a long time. I expect that I will get around to it sooner than later; but as usual I suffer from "too many ideas, not enough time"