AHC: Earlier Successful Women's Rights Movements

[treefreak32]

With a POD anytime before 1900, have there be a successful push for women's rights in societies which historically did not have equality between the sexes which lasts into TTL 21st century, resulting in a greater level of women's rights worldwide than OTL.
Feel free to interpret this however you want, just try not to turn this into something that would be better in the Political Chat section.

 

[Derek Jackson]

Maybe France's revolution goes better? Louis and Marie Antoinette get away, no terror.

The food riots get linked to political demands

France becomes a model of democracy

 

[Brita]

Avoid Napoleon's rise to power in France. I remember reading women's condition in France had slowly improved throughout the 18th century until he came up with that very misogynist Code of his (well, I know he wasn't the only one concocting it but still).

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Aaron Burr marries Theodosia to a Northerner, say Ethan Allen Brown of Ohio who studied lawunder Hamilton but was a Democrat-Republican instead. He trusts the land wealth that he can get in the Cincinnati area is just as lucrative. I choose Brown because he never married in our timeline - I don't know why but there is a chance that he was just so busy with government that he didn't have time for a spouse.

This lets Theodosia, who was very bright, carve a niche for herself on the frontier, away from Southern society which might have kept her down. She lives long enough that she inherits his Senate seat when he dies, and her prestige lets her be a leader much earlier, akin to maybe Eleanor Roosevelt. Women get the vote in the Midwest because of her in the aftermath 9f the Civil War and nationally in the 1880s, and her influence leads to women being seen as able to be educated like men many decades earlier.

 

[Socrates]

You need to prevent the Romanticist backlash to the Enlightenment. Perhaps maintain the visible success of the Enlightenment via avoiding the bloodiness of revolutions. Have more progress from Enlightened despots or English-style Glorious Revolutions.

 

[Socrates]

The other option is to do a much earlier POD. Have Christianity codify its early embrace of women in the religion's early days, accepting women as priests and bishops.

 

[treefreak32]

These are all great, only just saw these responses.

Aaron Burr marries Theodosia to a Northerner, say Ethan Allen Brown of Ohio who studied lawunder Hamilton but was a Democrat-Republican instead. He trusts the land wealth that he can get in the Cincinnati area is just as lucrative. I choose Brown because he never married in our timeline - I don't know why but there is a chance that he was just so busy with government that he didn't have time for a spouse.

This lets Theodosia, who was very bright, carve a niche for herself on the frontier, away from Southern society which might have kept her down. She lives long enough that she inherits his Senate seat when he dies, and her prestige lets her be a leader much earlier, akin to maybe Eleanor Roosevelt. Women get the vote in the Midwest because of her in the aftermath 9f the Civil War and nationally in the 1880s, and her influence leads to women being seen as able to be educated like men many decades earlier.

I like this one a lot, to be honest. I can imagine a whole story centered-on of Theodosia's life ITTL.

 

[VaultJumper]

Well you could have the 14th Amendment to US constitution original wording be kept because it said person not man

 

[Maeglin]

The other option is to do a much earlier POD. Have Christianity codify its early embrace of women in the religion's early days, accepting women as priests and bishops.

Not actually viable without fundamentally changing the core of Christianity. You're dealing with apostolic succession here - Jesus chose men as his disciples.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Not actually viable without fundamentally changing the core of Christianity. You're dealing with apostolic succession here - Jesus chose men as his disciples.

I think the formation of Christianity itself already fundamentally altered the core of Jesus's teachings, but that's besides the point. From what I gather, it was wealthy women who were financially supporting Jesus and his followers, and there are a few scant mentions of female apostles in the New Testament as-written anyway. I think there were enough women in the movement to make such a thing plausible, at least as a splinter sect (of which there were many in the early years).

Mind you, whether the specific sect that's practicing this would prove successful enough to change the movement, or propel the movement to the kind of success it had OTL, is another thing entirely. I suspect a lot of Christianity's misogyny is simply a byproduct of the broader culture from which it emerged, with theological conclusions made to match that prescribed outcome rather than derived from the teachings themselves, so chances are a more women-friendly early Church would have a harder time proselytizing itself than the OTL Church.

Which is a shame, because I'd really like to see that POD, lol

 

[treefreak32]

I think the formation of Christianity itself already fundamentally altered the core of Jesus's teachings, but that's besides the point. From what I gather, it was wealthy women who were financially supporting Jesus and his followers, and there are a few scant mentions of female apostles in the New Testament as-written anyway. I think there were enough women in the movement to make such a thing plausible, at least as a splinter sect (of which there were many in the early years).

Mind you, whether the specific sect that's practicing this would prove successful enough to change the movement, or propel the movement to the kind of success it had OTL, is another thing entirely. I suspect a lot of Christianity's misogyny is simply a byproduct of the broader culture from which it emerged, with theological conclusions made to match that prescribed outcome rather than derived from the teachings themselves, so chances are a more women-friendly early Church would have a harder time proselytizing itself than the OTL Church.

Which is a shame, because I'd really like to see that POD, lol

How about an Islam-style third major Abrahamic faith that, for whatever reason, preaches gender equality?

 

[Coivara]

I think there's a fundamental problem here - force.

I could break the average woman like a twig, and I don't even consider myself physically strong. I'm pretty sure most men posting here could do the same.
Now imagine a bunch of rough pre-moderns, convince them that women are just as good as men. Again, those men can still break women like twigs, and unlike us, they have far less compunctions to do so.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

I think there's a fundamental problem here - force.

I could break the average woman like a twig, and I don't even consider myself physically strong. I'm pretty sure most men posting here could do the same.
Now imagine a bunch of rough pre-moderns, convince them that women are just as good as men. Again, those men can still break women like twigs, and unlike us, they have far less compunctions to do so.

The time periods being discussed here are well after brute indiduval force is everything.

 

[Coivara]

The time periods being discussed here are well after brute indiduval force is everything.

Samuel Colt made men equal in the 1800s, that's in the tall end of the "Before 1900" period.

Don't forget: Its not just about combat, but also labour. Men do the heaviest, riskiest jobs.
You have to find a way that rougher pre-moderns will respect women as worthy of being heard, and even equals. Bit of a tall order.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Samuel Colt made men equal in the 1800s, that's in the tall end of the "Before 1900" period.

Don't forget: Its not just about combat, but also labour. Men do the heaviest, riskiest jobs.
You have to find a way that rougher pre-moderns will respect women as worthy of being heard, and even equals. Bit of a tall order.

That's why we are here. There were plenty of attempts to improve women's lots in world history. Some were successful, many were not. Plenty of room for improvement, lots of chances. Even just looking at the 18th century, it was a time of incredible social change, it is very possible women's rights could be part of that.

 

[Aluma]

Women served in armies waaaay before Samuel Colt
Sure I cant say they were as strong as men on that, not even close, but fact still stands it happened and even if you remove that as an example of exception-not-the-rule we still had a considerably amount of matriarchies centuries if not thousands of years before the gun
Im not saying matriarchies were examples of equality either, obviously, but it shows that women could and did held political power & status before in different societies, meaning what was required for them to have rights and power was not physical strenght but a very entrenched culture willing to accept them on these roles in society
Would they be the majority of the army & workforce? Course not, but they still could have rights and live on a more-or-less gender equal civilisation, which is what I think OP is going for

 

[Pesterfield]

How did cultures with poor treatment of women but powerful and important goddesses justify it?

Mostly I'm thinking Greece and Athena, but I'm sure other existed.

 

[Maeglin]

How did cultures with poor treatment of women but powerful and important goddesses justify it?

Mostly I'm thinking Greece and Athena, but I'm sure other existed.

Gods and goddesses were their thing. Mortals were a different thing.

(Basically, it doesn't really matter if a Force of Nature is male or female. It's still as intimidating as all hell).

 

[Maeglin]

Samuel Colt made men equal in the 1800s, that's in the tall end of the "Before 1900" period.

Don't forget: Its not just about combat, but also labour. Men do the heaviest, riskiest jobs.
You have to find a way that rougher pre-moderns will respect women as worthy of being heard, and even equals. Bit of a tall order.

Plato advocated for the education of women, and Euripides wrote respectful plays with women as the main characters. Egypt had female Pharaohs. Beowulf - one of the most testosterone-drenched pieces of literature out there - has Wealhtheow in a highly respected political role.

 

[Elfwine]

We have a few Roman empresses (Byzantine, if you're being picky), and a few ruling queens in multiple countries too. But their societies could and did see them as exceptions, not the rule.

So this raises a question as far as exploring changing what's seen as normal:

Avoid Napoleon's rise to power in France. I remember reading women's condition in France had slowly improved throughout the 18th century until he came up with that very misogynist Code of his (well, I know he wasn't the only one concocting it but still).

Would it be possible for an alternate version of this code (not necessarily involving Napoleon) to be written that supports, instead of limits, women's rights? Or was sentiment for what was written that overwhelming?