What if japan had only invaded dutch east indies, not uk/us colonies?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Japan also invaded the DEI from British territory that they seized in their initial attack.

I think that the Japanese were somewhat correct in their logic to try and wipe the British and Americans out of the area first, anything else just exposed their flanks and made them super vulnerable.

Japan did not even bother to announce a DoW against the Dutch until January 1942. They sent a letter of demands and ultimatum, but other wise waite over a month.

Is some other sort of play here by Japan, some sort of coup or sponsored rebellion in the DEI? Complicate things by spinning some hypocritocal yarn about anti imperialism or pan-Asiaism (a thin premise I admit, given their very public atrocities in China) and backing some Indonesian rebels? Though I imagine that is too long a time to enact with the current embargoes/probably would invite Allied retaliation or counter involvement.

There was unrest, but the Dutch & locals on their side had a handle on it.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

I may have been too subtle.

Field Grade Japanese officers were responsible for the Soviet Japanese border war, the main Sino-Japanese War in 1937, numerous assassinations of officials they didn't agree with and were the leaders of the attempted Coup to prevent the 1945 surrender of Japan.

Filed Grade IJA officers were, to a shocking degree, a law unto themselves.

I've never followed up on it, but was once told the principle trouble makers were members of the families controlling the Zaibatsu. Or if not family members were affiliated with fraternal & political groups connected to those families. The implication here is the leaders within the Zaibatsu, or select Zaibatsu, were forming policy and executing it as a shadow government. The imperialists had gone far in the 1920s & 1920s in imposing their ideas on Japans government policy, but not achieved full control. Assassination, ect... only took them so far. Deadlocked or stonewalled at several points in the Diet & Cabinet, or Emperors inner circle the imperialists among the Zaibatsu were executing their goals via their brothers, sons, inlaws, and friends among the officer corps.

 

[CalBear]

I've never followed up on it, but was once told the principle trouble makers were members of the families controlling the Zaibatsu. Or if not family members were affiliated with fraternal & political groups connected to those families. The implication here is the leaders within the Zaibatsu, or select Zaibatsu, were forming policy and executing it as a shadow government. The imperialists had gone far in the 1920s & 1920s in imposing their ideas on Japans government policy, but not achieved full control. Assassination, ect... only took them so far. Deadlocked or stonewalled at several points in the Diet & Cabinet, or Emperors inner circle the imperialists among the Zaibatsu were executing their goals via their brothers, sons, inlaws, and friends among the officer corps.

Very possible. I've never heard it, but it would make sense.

 

[CalBear]

Probably a misleading statement. It's technically true, because they would have several of those.

More than several. Ignoring order was a regular occurrence. The CO of the first unit to land on Guadalcanal after the Americans invaded (this bloody idiot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyonao_Ichiki) was flat out ORDERED to scout and hold for the rest of his Brigade to arrive. Instead he decided to attack despite be outnumbered 15-1. Went in with 900 men, about 100 got back to the Line of Departure. He was, BTW, the same officer who largely STARTED the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, without orders. He was also selected to lead one of the two units that would have attempted to land on Midway if the naval battle had gone according to plan.

The willingness to violate orders and act out was so serious in the Japanese Army that the Imperial Navy General Staff literally promoted Admiral Yamamoto to command of the Combined Fleet so he would be quartered on the fleet flagship and not ashore because the though an field grade Army officer or two would perforate him.

 

[BobTheBarbarian]

I've never followed up on it, but was once told the principle trouble makers were members of the families controlling the Zaibatsu. Or if not family members were affiliated with fraternal & political groups connected to those families. The implication here is the leaders within the Zaibatsu, or select Zaibatsu, were forming policy and executing it as a shadow government. The imperialists had gone far in the 1920s & 1920s in imposing their ideas on Japans government policy, but not achieved full control. Assassination, ect... only took them so far. Deadlocked or stonewalled at several points in the Diet & Cabinet, or Emperors inner circle the imperialists among the Zaibatsu were executing their goals via their brothers, sons, inlaws, and friends among the officer corps.

Very possible. I've never heard it, but it would make sense.

It would make a ton of sense. The Armed Forces and the businesses that backed them gradually took control of the whole country starting about 1905 or thereabouts until they basically ran everything. I was just reading a book about this, though I can't remember exactly which one. There was a detailed chapter on this very subject.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

More than several. Ignoring order was a regular occurrence. The CO of the first unit to land on Guadalcanal after the Americans invaded (this bloody idiot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyonao_Ichiki) was flat out ORDERED to scout and hold for the rest of his Brigade to arrive. Instead he decided to attack despite be outnumbered 15-1.

In all fairness he was told in good faith the US had only 5000 men ashore. The Japanese had often defeated ill trained Chinese militia at 1-5 odds and the odds on paper in Maylasia and the Philippines had been only slightly better. One wonders if he understood before he died the odds on the firing line were barely 1-1.

... He was also selected to lead one of the two units that would have attempted to land on Midway if the naval battle had gone according to plan.

A situation where the odds in pure manpower were 1-1. The aggregate Japanese landing force was close to 5,000 men & so was the number of US on Midway. The actual Japanese combat force was two reinforced battalions, one for each island, of almost 2500 soldiers & seamen. They were supposed to wade across 300 meters of exposed reef and assault entrenched defenders reinforced with concrete bunkers, equipped with MG, mortars, light and heavy cannon, and tanks. Sound familiar? On Betio Island it took a assault force of 8,000 Marines three days to methodically clear a similar defense. How would Col Icikis impetus 'Bamboo Spear' tactics have done?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

It would make a ton of sense. The Armed Forces and the businesses that backed them gradually took control of the whole country starting about 1905 or thereabouts until they basically ran everything. I was just reading a book about this, though I can't remember exactly which one. There was a detailed chapter on this very subject.

Do you have the title/author of the book.

 

[BobTheBarbarian]

Do you have the title/author of the book.

I'll see what I can find.

 

[Alex1guy]

There was unrest, but the Dutch & locals on their side had a handle on it.

Yeah I thought that was the case.