Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Mark1878]

Yes. I knew that. Both had, shall we say, healthy egos? ( Emphasis being thought.) But Tom had too much clout in the political world - and he had been Monash’s COS - which is one reason why he had limited command experience. At the risk of derailing the thread, I think he was probably the best choice for head of the AIF, which required considerable political nous. As a commander, maybe not so good.

ITTL he has shown how good or bad he is in the Greek campaign. As this was better than OTL won't he get credit or will that go to Wilson.

Also does Australia still have the political rule that senior officers can't be from the regular army but come from the militia.

 

[Rickshaw]

ITTL he has shown how good or bad he is in the Greek campaign. As this was better than OTL won't he get credit or will that go to Wilson.

Also does Australia still have the political rule that senior officers can't be from the regular army but come from the militia.

Senior officers traditionally came from the militia, before wwii. After wwii the reverse became the rule as the "real" army was created in 1945 and sought to usurp the militia from its dominance of the defence forces. Before wwii the regular army was kept small and formed the professional backbone of the army in general, undertaking staff and garrison duties while the militia was made up of part-time soldiers. The militia formed the bulk of the soldiers, holding down in peacetime most of the general duties and also a civilian job. The regular army was formed into combat arms in 1945 in the Royal Australia Regiment. The RAR formed the overwhelming majority of the Australian contribution to the BCOFJ - British-Commonweath Occupation Forces Japan.

 

[PMN1]

The Germans have another big problem, they are reliant on the Italians for the naval assets to evacuate their forces, they could try asking the Vichy French to assist, some hope.

IIRC, they did ask to use the port of Bizerte for logistics but the Vichy French ummed and ahhed...in French....for an eternity.

 

[Draconis]

Tom had a history. Too much of a history. He liked a punt and a drink. I often wondered how he got along with Dug-out Doug. He obviously knew where some skeletons were buried (literally).

"liked a punt"? Liking a drink I understand but your Aussie slang eludes me.

 

[MrCharles]

"liked a punt"? Liking a drink I understand but your Aussie slang eludes me.

Betting on horse races and the like, I think.

 

[David Flin]

"liked a punt"? Liking a drink I understand but your Aussie slang eludes me.

Gambling. Generally, but not exclusively, horses.

 

[Mark1878]

Gambling. Generally, but not exclusively, horses.

It is not just Aussie but English .

In English it is betting on anything including backing someones idea with your resources but mainly betting on sports

 

[David Flin]

I don't know about the English, but I do know about the East End.

"A cockle gets you a pony," for example, makes perfect sense.

Doesn't it?

 

[ArtosStark]

I don't know about the English, but I do know about the East End.

"A cockle gets you a pony," for example, makes perfect sense.

Doesn't it?

No, but this is coming from a guy who wears a bunnyhug to work, so you will hear no criticism from me.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Oh the youth, a cockle gets you a pony, does make perfect sense, to those of us brought up in a cash economy. I believe that the Yank equivalent would be five will get you either eight or ten. You want to borrow money from the company lone shark, and most big companies had an in-house shark, who ran a book, much as did the company bookie. So borrow five and pay back eight of ten, in the case of London, borrow ten a cockle, and pay back twenty five a pony, steep interest rates, for the desperate. And despite what people think, if you don’t pay you don’t get your legs broken, a man with broken legs can’t work, what you do is. Well on the Arndale in Wandsworth, a hell hole estate, in the seventies/eighties, was kick the debits door down, then grab his kid and hang the kid over the balcony of the flats, with up to a twenty story drop. 😵‍💫.

RR.

 

[David Flin]

Ah, in my day it was risking a Dagenham smile. But the principle is the same.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Well on the Arndale in Wandsworth, a hell hole estate, in the seventies/eighties, was kick the debits door down, then grab his kid and hang the kid over the balcony of the flats, with up to a twenty story drop. 😵‍💫.

Off topic so my apologies, but I lived near that area for best part of a decade. Luckily this was after it was renamed the Southside centre and the whole are was undergoing gentrification. Don’t recall any kids being dropped from balconies, thankfully.

 

[Ramontxo]

Oh the youth, a cockle gets you a pony, does make perfect sense, to those of us brought up in a cash economy. I believe that the Yank equivalent would be five will get you either eight or ten. You want to borrow money from the company lone shark, and most big companies had an in-house shark, who ran a book, much as did the company bookie. So borrow five and pay back eight of ten, in the case of London, borrow ten a cockle, and pay back twenty five a pony, steep interest rates, for the desperate. And despite what people think, if you don’t pay you don’t get your legs broken, a man with broken legs can’t work, what you do is. Well on the Arndale in Wandsworth, a hell hole estate, in the seventies/eighties, was kick the debits door down, then grab his kid and hang the kid over the balcony of the flats, with up to a twenty story drop. 😵‍💫.

RR.

Shit, this sound too true

 

[Julius Vogel]

Wandsworth today, most of it anyway, now is deemed quite fancy but it's not long since it had the reputation of being the murder capital of London due to various estates north / west of Clapham. Before my time tho and while bits of it don't feel safe but all accounts it's a world away from what it was even in the early O0s.

 

[Rickshaw]

"liked a punt"? Liking a drink I understand but your Aussie slang eludes me.

A bet. He liked to bet on the horses, the footie, what ever was going. He also like the attention of the Ladies of the Night - when he was police commissioner, apparently his badge was discovered when a brothel was raided by the police.

 

[Draconis]

A bet. He liked to bet on the horses, the footie, what ever was going. He also like the attention of the Ladies of the Night - when he was police commissioner, apparently his badge was discovered when a brothel was raided by the police.

He was there likely simply conducting some undercover work.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

He was there likely simply conducting some undercover work.

Or discussing the Australian equivalent of Ugandan Affairs. New Guinean matters?

 

[Gunnarnz]

He was there likely simply conducting some undercover work.

Ba-dum tiss!

 

[Rickshaw]

Sir Tom was a bit of a "rogue" in the best Larrikin tradition of Australia... Even when he was Commissioner of Police for Victoria in the 1920s and 30s.

 

[allanpcameron]

16 June 1941. Operation Battleaxe. Day 10

The attack on the Italian positions at Sirte began before dawn, once again with a strong showing from the RAF. The Italians, who had guessed the attack was imminent, had put up a strong maritime strike force because of the previous naval bombardments, but the Royal Navy hadn’t sailed towards Sirte that morning. The Italian airfields were struck heavily by the RAF and some of the Italian aircraft were damaged and destroyed as they came in to land. Once again, the Wellingtons, Marylands and Blenheims struck at known defences, concentrating on probable artillery positions as well as the airfields.

During the night, the 7th Armoured Division and 9th Australian Division began moving west to join 4th Indian Division. Lieutenant General O’Connor had kept the assault on Sirte relatively straightforward, with the usual armoured flanking movement, while the infantry moved straight up. The terrain around Sirte didn’t really suit the defender, the best ground was just west of the town. The Italians had dug plenty of anti-tank ditches and it looked from aerial reconnaissance that the pattern of fortifications weren’t dissimilar to those experienced previously at Bardia and Tobruk. The one of remaining understrength regiments of 7th Tank Brigade moved up along with the Australians. Before dawn the Australians arrived at the village of Sultan where the 4th Indian Division had been concentrated.

The 11th Indian Brigade, supported by the other understrength Tank Regiment of 7th Tank Brigade, had set off as the leading element of 4th Indian Division, the other two Indian Brigades (5th and 7th) were following along the coast road in extended order to prevent too many losses to aerial attack. The plan was to travel as much of the thirty miles to Sirte in the dark. The 9th Australian Division would follow them so that both Divisions would be able to attack the Italians in a coordinated manner.

The Valiant I* tanks of 4th CLY Sharpshooters, the only Armoured Regiment of 22nd Armoured Brigade at full strength, led the other amalgamated Armoured Regiment (RGH/3rd CLY), with 3rd Indian Motor Brigade, advancing on an inland route to take them past the end of Wadi Tilal, and hopefully the end of the Italian defences. 7th Armoured Division would follow 22nd Armoured Division on a reasonable track that would take them about just about 12 miles inland. The LRDG and 11th Hussars had traced this route and found it to be good going. The route would bring the tanks to Qasr Abu Hadi, where there was an abandoned Italian landing field. Intelligence believed that the Ariete Division was part of Sirte’s defences, and they would probably be a mobile counterattacking force. If the Italian tanks did engage, it was believed that this would likely be the area they would be protecting.

The 22nd Armoured Division, as understrength as it was, would act as flank guard for the 7th Armoured Division, and if the Italian position was defeated, 22nd and 7th Armoured Division planned to advance towards Beurat, to try to take the position that was most defensible, before the Italians and Germans could make the most it. This last part of the plan was more in hope that in expectation. If the Italian defenders held out against the Indians and Australians, the 7th Armoured Division would likely be required to help the Infantry Divisions break through.

As usual the operational plan was subject to the variables that no planner could ever control. The leading element of 11th Indian Brigade (2nd Battalion, 5th Mahratta Light Infantry) ran into a minefield which had been missed by previous reconnaissance. While they toiled to extricate themselves, and waiting for the Division Engineers to come forward to clear paths through the mines, a strong raid by the Luftwaffe got through the RAF cover and bombed the now stationary Brigade. The numbers of casualties, just under 100 killed and wounded, wasn’t critical to their fighting ability, but a lot of their transport had been damaged or destroyed primarily by strafing fighters. The delay had a knock-on effect on the other two Indian Brigades, and therefore on the 9th Australian Division. With the timetable disrupted, and only one Division at a time able to use the coast road and the track closer to the sea, the chances of 9th Australian Division arriving to support the Indian Division any time before late afternoon looked unlikely.

The signal to 22nd Armoured Division that the Indians had been held up wasn’t received for some reason, and so that formation continued to advance as before, drawing ever further apart from the main force. 7th Armoured Division, which did get the message still had further to go anyway, and so carried on towards Qasr Abu Hadi, with the probability that they would arrive there at much the same time as the Indian Division arrived at Sirte.

With the expectation that the Italians would have liberally sowed mines in the approaches to their positions, probably covered by artillery; the British Empire infantry and tanks would lay siege to the Italian positions. Under the cover of XIII Corps artillery, the Royal Engineers would clear paths, which would likely take much of the night. The next morning, all three Divisions would assault the Italian positions simultaneously.

As the day wore on the three Divisions took their places and an artillery duel, and aerial battle, took place to try to disrupt the other side’s plans. Communications with 22nd Armoured Division were re-established and Major-General Gambier-Parry had his force halt for the night. The gap between 22nd and 7th Armoured Divisions was about ten miles. This gap had been noted by aerial reconnaissance, the Italian General commanding the Ariete Division, Ismaele di Nisio, requested permission to exploit that gap. While his tanks wouldn’t be a match for the British Valiant I tanks, they would be able to get round behind the British through the gap and attack the support and supply troops behind the main British position. General Carlo Spatocco, commanding the Sirte defences, refused di Nisio’s request. He couldn’t help feel that there was a trap set, and throwing away the Ariete Division wasn’t an option. Spatocco’s plan was to hold up the British for as long as possible, then, with the Ariete Division covering the retreat, the 27th Division (Bresca) and 17th Division (Pavia) would fall back to Beurat.
(Detail of map showing the area the Indian and Australian Divisions will be working.)