Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

So while I follow your reasoning I still believe that Australian forces will be concentrated in Malaya.

The main reason for this is that Australia want's the AEF as one cohesive formation. The splitting up of Australian divisions by the British was a point of contention after all. After fighting is over in North Africa represents an ideal time for this to happen as their won't be any other active land theatres. The only question then becomes where do the troops go to get familiar with each other and work out kinks in the command structure etc.
The Middle east makes a good bit of sense as their is plenty of space to train and most of the troops are already there. There is still the issue of Japan though. Australia will be very wary of Japan and will want it's troops back east to face off against the Japanese threat.
So the next choice is bring them back to Australia, still plenty of space but most of the units are a long way off and in Australia they are much less of a deterrent to Japan.
The only other possible option is Malaya, it directly faces Japanese territory so is a good deterrent and has a good amount of space to train up troops. The other advantage is that is is a good half way house between Australia and the Mediterranean. That for me is key as this is not meant as a combat posting, more a training and deterrence posting. Once the Japanese back down or a deemed not a threat then the Australians will be sent back to the Mediterranean(once they are trained up). The training aspect is key here for me as the 8th Australian and 1st Australian Armoured are still working up. Add a British Armoured Division to both help build up the Australian Armoured and give the 8th a formation to train with that is ready to go and you have a decent force.
Again though this is meant as a training deployment more than anything. Their will be several months to a year at least before Britain is going to be conducting any major amphibious operations anywhere in Europe. You can afford to sit the Australians in Malaya for that time while they work up and then bring them back when everyone is ready. After all the Japanese won't do anything with a 4 Infantry and 2 Armoured divisions in Malaya will they.

As for Britain needing to be seen as doing something. Firstly the RAF will be in Malaya in greater strength than OTL as will the Royal Navy. The Navy is a far bigger deterrent than a British Division so will be appreciated. Plus their will likely be a division in Malaya to help the Australians get up to speed and other formations spread around. Reinforced Brigades on Rabul, Ambon and Timor wouldn't be unappreciated I'm sure.


The next major offence the British are likely planning will be Rhodes. You don't need the Australians for that, British and Greek troops will be plenty. Then after that it will either be Sicily or Norway in some form. If it is Norway are Australians the best choice?. Even if it is Sicily it will be mid 42 at the very earliest before Britain will think they can be ready.


The politics are simple. Australia want's its forces concentrated and this is an opportunity for that to happen. Britain can't object too much as what else is happening. Plus for Britain the Navy is the main line of defence and they can send some troops anyway as they have some to spare.

First, can you stop referring to the “AEF”? It was the 2nd Australian Imperial Force.

Second, Australia did not historically demand that its entire forces in the Middle East be redeployed to the Pacific until after Japan entered the war and had such early successes.

Third, Australia had a division earmarked to defend against Japan, so it’s not like they were averse to having some divide in their forces.

Forth, Malaya and Singapore are the responsibility of the British. The idea of sending the entire 2nd AIF there seems way over the top. Until the Japanese enter the war, which was not certain until it happened, they’d be on garrison duty. Australia declared war on Nazi Germany - and later Italy - and wanted to fight. They’re not just going to pull all forces back home, effectively, to face the Japanese threat because the Empire has the upper hand in North Africa.

More realistically, I could see one division being withdrawn first to Australia and then shipped to Darwin to provide brigade-size garrisons, allowing all of 8th Division to be concentrated in Singapore. The other two Australian divisions would remain in the Med, and may be joined by the 1st Australian Armoured Division, which the British should, in this timeline, be able to equip.
 
Looking some way ahead, the Italians have the question of where they use their frogmen to make the attacks equivalent to the original timeline late 1941 attacks on the Royal Navy battleships in Alexandria, if for one reason or another the original timeline attack is no longer viable for the Italians? The Italians did have some brave underwater sabotage experts, that they made some successful use of in the original timeline.
 
Let's not derail the thread with debates about the merits or otherwise of individual generals, but it is suffice to say that he could be recalled to Australia and another officer given command of I Australian Corps.
Sorry,
Wasn't meaning to derail.
(Don't send him back to Australia, send him to Washington).
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
The way forward for the British is very much dependent on when/if they capture Tripoli, and at what cost. In addition, once its clear that the entirety of Italian North Africa is going to fall to the British, how much damage to the Port of Tripoli. Do the Italians allow the Germans to do, and how much do they do themselves, given that it is the major port of the colony and it will be their colonists who suffer if the port is destroyed. Can Uncle Benito afford to have pamphlets picturing staving Italian colonists, dropped over his principal cities, while the BBC blasts out a constant liturgy of tales about how the British are making Herculean efforts to feed said colonists. The Germans too have a problem, what price there propaganda, of how the British left the French to fight at Dunkirk, while running away with their tail between their legs. If they pull out all their troops from Italian North Africa, via Tripoli and then destroy the port behind them, leaving the Italians in the lurch. The Germans have another big problem, they are reliant on the Italians for the naval assets to evacuate their forces, they could try asking the Vichy French to assist, some hope. So do the Germans try to evacuate their forces, while destroying the only major port in INA, do the Italians allow them to do this, and what toll on the ships evacuating Germans and Italians will the British exact.

The problem for the British is what state will the Port of Tripoli be in when they capture it, and what do they do once they have it in their hands. If it has been totally destroyed, the British have a potential military disaster on their hands, and an actual humanitarian disaster to deal with. How do they feed and supply their own personal, and in accordance with the Geneva convention those enemy forces they have captured. What is their responsibility to the civilians, both indigenous and colonial settlers, to insure their well-being. If the damage to the port is more superficial, how quickly can the clear the damage, and return the port to its full working capacity. With the best will in the world and given a totally undamaged port, it’s going to take between four to six weeks, for the British to get on top of the situation. They have to improve the handling facilities at the port, round up and sort all of the German and Italian forces, that have fallen into their hands. Establish a civil administration for Tripoli, note this is a semi modern city, not some fly infested village or harbour. Think about what they do next, start the process of reequipping their forces, new uniforms, replacements for worn out kit, etc. And reorganisation of the hodge podge of forces, into something that resembles a more coherent force. On the question of what will happen to the various Australian forces, I personally believe that the Australian Government, possibly with the New Zealand Government will want to see the formation of an all Australian Corps. Three devisions, one armoured and two infantry, with other than some Corps artillery, all Australian personnel, or the formation of a new ANZAC Corps, of four devisions, one of which is a New Zealand infantry devision. If any units are sent to Malaya/Singapore right now, it will be one of the Indian devisions, and that is dependent on the shipping being available. Until the Japanese invasion, why send an Australian devision that is equipped and trained to fight a European stile high intensity mechanical warfare. Far better to retain them in the Middle East, than send them to Malaya/Singapore, where they would have to give up the majority of their advanced equipment, retrain, and adapt to totally different conditions. Instead send the Indian devision from the Middle East, a British infantry devision on its way to the Middle East, and the Australian infantry devision that was originally planned to be sent to Singapore. The biggest advantage you can give the forces in Burma, Malaya and Singapore, is to reorganise the command structure, and replace the present ground force commanders, with younger experienced ones from Britain. And once again I will suggest that Montgomery with his fetish for hard and realistic training is the ideal person to become Commander Ground Forces Malaya and Singapore.

Once the British are in possession of Tripoli, it will depend on what the French in FNA decide to do, before the British can make any firm plans. If they decide to chuck in the towel and defect from the Vichy government, and work out a deal with the British and Free French. There will be a lot of negotiations, that need to take place, before a deal can happen. Britain has a lot on its plate right now, what to do with Crete and the thousands of Greek troops that have been evacuated from Greece. What to do about the Vichy French in Syria and Lebanon, and those Italian islands to the east of Crete. Where to strike next, against the Germans, an invasion or a major raid, in the Mediterranean or from Britain. And what to do about the increasing threat from the Japanese in the Far East, shut down all major operations in the Mediterranean for now and concrete on reinforcing the Far East. Continue operations in the Mediterranean at a reduced scale, while diverting resources to the Far East. Or keep your fingers crossed that the Japanese will not be so stupid, and are just puff and wind, but not in the end going to do anything. So full steam ahead with your Mediterranean plans, and please London where are the better tanks etc, and the amphibious units, you promised use. Even if/when the Japanese jump into the preverbal frying pan, unless there can as they did IOTL, achieve the complete collapse of the British, and capture Singapore. The war will be from then on very different to what it was IOTL. Unless Rommel can pull the magic rabbit out of the hat, the campaign in North Africa is over, it’s just a question of how long it takes to finish off. Britain in 1942, will have more time and resources to deal with the ongoing conflict in the North Atlantic, more aircraft especially, it is going to after thoroughly testing introduce a new and in some ways the first main battle tank, along with a number of other armoured vehicles. If after much debate it is decided not to invade Northern Norway, you can expect a number of very serious raids on this area, to be carried out. And at some point, Rhodes and a number of Italian islands are going to be invaded, along with raids on the Greek mainland. The entry of America into the war, will be a great relief, and the British will be in a much stronger position both morally and politically, than they were IOTL, able for the first year and possibly longer, to while not call the tune, at least have a major say in which one gets played.

RR.
 
Isn't Rommel currently flying back to Germany right now? If that's the case he won't be able to command much from Berlin and given he is probably going to get a major dressing down when he does I imagine his position isn't the same as OTL.
 
The way forward for the British is very much dependent on when/if they capture Tripoli, and at what cost. In addition, once its clear that the entirety of Italian North Africa is going to fall to the British, how much damage to the Port of Tripoli. Do the Italians allow the Germans to do, and how much do they do themselves, given that it is the major port of the colony and it will be their colonists who suffer if the port is destroyed. Can Uncle Benito afford to have pamphlets picturing staving Italian colonists, dropped over his principal cities, while the BBC blasts out a constant liturgy of tales about how the British are making Herculean efforts to feed said colonists. The Germans too have a problem, what price there propaganda, of how the British left the French to fight at Dunkirk, while running away with their tail between their legs. If they pull out all their troops from Italian North Africa, via Tripoli and then destroy the port behind them, leaving the Italians in the lurch. The Germans have another big problem, they are reliant on the Italians for the naval assets to evacuate their forces, they could try asking the Vichy French to assist, some hope. So do the Germans try to evacuate their forces, while destroying the only major port in INA, do the Italians allow them to do this, and what toll on the ships evacuating Germans and Italians will the British exact. RR.
I wonder what are the numbers here in TTL. How many German troops remain in Libya? Not only the Africa Corp's remnants but also other support units and Luftwaffe personnel. In any event I wouldn't think that there is any chance of significant German reinforcements either army or air force being sent to North Africa at this point.

But I'm not so sure that Berlin would order a full withdrawal either. Do the Germans have so many troops in Libya that they can't afford to lose them? I think it's more likely that some amount of resupply from Germany and Italy is sent along with orders to hold out. Berlin's thinking being that major reinforcements will be sent after victory in Russia. Fat chance that. The British and Allied forces will take Tripoli, maybe in a couple of months or less but it won't be a cakewalk.


"Isn't Rommel currently flying back to Germany right now? If that's the case he won't be able to command much from Berlin and given he is probably going to get a major dressing down when he does I imagine his position isn't the same as OTL." @kelgar04

I think for the Italians, Rommel is persona non grata. And he's not popular in Berlin either. In TTL his career path will be somewhat different then OTL. He's likely finished in North Africa. In TTL he's not the Desert Fox but instead Rommel becomes known as the Desert Fool. I would guess after an unpleasant encounter with Hitler he's looking at, at best a staff position on some general staff in Russia where later on he's either killed or captured. Or perhaps he's never makes it to Berlin because he's killed, wounded or captured at Sirte or Buerat. Author's fiat.
 
Draconis and Ramp-Rat both mentioned shipping troops out of Libya. It's not impossible, but is pretty risky with so much of Libya under allied control.
The main problem is that neither Mussolini nor Hitler liked retreats and are likely to demand a last stand until it's too late.
It's very difficult to see any prospect of Vichy support. Darlan and Petain might agree for concessions, but the fleet in Toulon is in poor readiness for aquick evacuation. With limited rdcent practice, ships might get 'lost'. Sorry admiral I turned port instead of starboard and ended up in Tobruk/Malta/Benghazi and the British don't want us to leave....
It would create an opportunity for a great scam, though. French fleet is allowed enough fuel and skeleton crew to collect troops from Tripoli. Ships pick up axis troops. Force H politely asks where they are headed. Well, generalissimo, we'd love to fight but the Germans wouldn't trust us to carry ammunition for the guns, and you remember what happened last time we didn't do as they said.
Result is at least part of French navy sent to Martinique or taken over by allies and lots of axis prisoners either interned and disarmed (to be returned after much paperwork and concessions) or sent to do farm work in Canada.
 
Draconis and Ramp-Rat both mentioned shipping troops out of Libya. It's not impossible, but is pretty risky with so much of Libya under allied control.
The main problem is that neither Mussolini nor Hitler liked retreats and are likely to demand a last stand until it's too late.
It's very difficult to see any prospect of Vichy support. Darlan and Petain might agree for concessions, but the fleet in Toulon is in poor readiness for aquick evacuation. With limited rdcent practice, ships might get 'lost'. Sorry admiral I turned port instead of starboard and ended up in Tobruk/Malta/Benghazi and the British don't want us to leave....
It would create an opportunity for a great scam, though. French fleet is allowed enough fuel and skeleton crew to collect troops from Tripoli. Ships pick up axis troops. Force H politely asks where they are headed. Well, generalissimo, we'd love to fight but the Germans wouldn't trust us to carry ammunition for the guns, and you remember what happened last time we didn't do as they said.
Result is at least part of French navy sent to Martinique or taken over by allies and lots of axis prisoners either interned and disarmed (to be returned after much paperwork and concessions) or sent to do farm work in Canada.
Absolutely hilarious. :) BTW, I am of the opinion that the Germans won't attempt any major withdrawal of troops from Libya. And neither will the Italians.
 
Hello,

What happens now in North Africa and the Mediterranean may shift considerably now that British/Indian/Anzac achieved more decisive results in the former. My guess is that combat may shift to a intensified naval phase between the British Royal Navy, the Italian Navy, and German U-boats and bombers.

As for further Axis forces to be sent to North Africa, that may be delayed/reduced due to focus on initiating Barbarossa. In OTL forces were sent after the conclusion of El Alamein, but the Axis forces were cornered into Tunisia and destroyed. Until Barbarossa swings into gear, the Axis may focus on enhancing defenses in their holdings in North Africa, and southern Italy while taking over the rest of France sooner. At least that's how I see it now.

As for the Far East, there seems to be nothing in Europe to affect the Japanese actions differently from OTL right now. At the strategic level, the Japanese must have drawn their own conclusions upon the results of the North African operations, but there is no indication as to how they are to react yet. We the readers will have to see what the author ultimately reveals.
 
Both thought they were likely candidates to command. Neither had a chance against Tom.
Yes. I knew that. Both had, shall we say, healthy egos? ( Emphasis being thought.) But Tom had too much clout in the political world - and he had been Monash’s COS - which is one reason why he had limited command experience. At the risk of derailing the thread, I think he was probably the best choice for head of the AIF, which required considerable political nous. As a commander, maybe not so good.
 
Yes. I knew that. Both had, shall we say, healthy egos? ( Emphasis being thought.) But Tom had too much clout in the political world - and he had been Monash’s COS - which is one reason why he had limited command experience. At the risk of derailing the thread, I think he was probably the best choice for head of the AIF, which required considerable political nous. As a commander, maybe not so good.
Tom had a history. Too much of a history. He liked a punt and a drink. I often wondered how he got along with Dug-out Doug. He obviously knew where some skeletons were buried (literally).
 
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