Full scale Ostsiedlung

[Sarrugi lugal]

What if HRE centralizes in Early Middle Ages and expands and Germanizes upto and heavily fortifies the Urals and Caucasus mountain passes by the time mongols came
ambushing any invaders

will they keep Mongols out europe or will Mongols conquer more of europe ?

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Using that word is super anachronistic and not really relevant.

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

Using that word is super anachronistic and not really relevant.

will they keep Mongols out europe or will Mongols conquer more of europe ?

 

[The Tai-Pan]

will they keep Mongols out europe or will Mongols conquer more of europe ?

I meant your use of the word lebensraum.

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

I meant your use of the word lebensraum.

i couldn't get a better word

 

[alexmilman]

What if HRE centralizes in Early Middle Ages and expands and Germanizes upto and heavily fortifies the Urals and Caucasus mountain passes
ambushing any invaders

will they keep Mongols out europe or will Mongols conquer more of europe ?

Complete fantasy on two main accounts:
1. Even “centralized” HRE of the early XIII would be unable to effectively annex Europe all the way to Ural and Caucasus. Start with looking at the map to figure out how much of a territory and how many countries it would need to conquer and effectively “Germanize”.

2. Besides the fact that “fortifying passes” of the Ural Mountains is technically impossible(2,500 km of the very low mountains with the numerous valleys), it is a pointless exercise because invasion of Europe happened in the space between Caspian Sea and the Ural which is approximately 500 km wide in its narrowest point. Which makes the part about Caucasus irrelevant even if still impractical (length: 1,200 km): there are numerous passes besides historically most important one at Derbent. And, of course, the whole area has to be conquered.

 

[Prince de Pringondani]

Call it

Ostsiedlung - Wikipedia​

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

1. Even “centralized” HRE of the early XIII would be unable to effectively annex Europe all the way to Ural and Caucasus. Start with looking at the map to figure out how much of a territory and how many countries it would need to conquer and effectively “Germanize”.

No
read clearly i didn't say early XIII

in Early Middle Ages

it has all of Early Middle Ages from it's founding i.e.,(962-1220) 258 years
the conquest can span centuries

2. Besides the fact that “fortifying passes” of the Ural Mountains is technically impossible(2,500 km of the very low mountains with the numerous valleys), it is a pointless exercise because invasion of Europe happened in the space between Caspian Sea and the Ural which is approximately 500 km wide in its narrowest point. Which makes the part about Caucasus irrelevant even if still impractical (length: 1,200 km): there are numerous passes besides historically most important one at Derbent. And, of course, the whole area has to be conquered.

will the manpower and castles of all of eastern and Central europe stop mongols ?

 

[The Tai-Pan]

It is really a nonsensical question for a bunch of reasons.

1. The HRE was never a polity capable of expanding eastward in the way described. Not only was it not interested, many other powers ranging from Poland to the Khazars to (later) Keiv stood in the way.

2. 'Germanizing' is a weird word for this place and time, and not really how the HRE worked.

3. Do they magically know the 'Mongols are coming'? Are the Mongols not going to be butterflied by the creation of one of the larger land empires in Europe suddenly appearing?

4. ' heavily fortifies the Urals and Caucasus mountain passes' is a bizarre concept considering not only would the feat be monumental surpassing the Great Wall of China, but also pointless considering the vast steppes in between the two ranges?

 

[alexmilman]

No
read clearly i didn't say early XIII

Earlier it would be even less realistic.

it has all of Early Middle Ages from it's founding i.e.,(962-1220) 258 years
the conquest can span centuries

Not enough people in the HRE to accomplish absorption of all cultures to the East of it and, even with such an absorption, not enough people to effectively defend a border 4,000-4,500 km long.

will the manpower and castles of all of eastern and Central europe stop mongols ?

Which “castles” are you talking about? As for the manpower, population of China in 1000AD was approximately 75,000,000 and of the HRE 11 - 12,000,000. Kievan Rus - 5,000,000, Hungary - 1,000,000, Poland - 1,000,000, Bohemia - under 1,000,000, Bulgaria - 2,000,000. You can make your own conclusions based upon the fact that the Mongols conquered China against the much greater numeric odds.

Unless you are explicitly assuming a general superiority of the German race (and those “Germanized” to became a part of it) over everybody else, neither part of your schema is realistic.

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

Earlier it would be even less realistic.


Not enough people in the HRE to accomplish absorption of all cultures to the East of it and, even with such an absorption, not enough people to effectively defend a border 4,000-4,500 km long.


Which “castles” are you talking about? As for the manpower, population of China in 1000AD was approximately 75,000,000 and of the HRE 11 - 12,000,000. Kievan Rus - 5,000,000, Hungary - 1,000,000, Poland - 1,000,000, Bohemia - under 1,000,000, Bulgaria - 2,000,000. You can make your own conclusions based upon the fact that the Mongols conquered China against the much greater numeric odds.

Unless you are explicitly assuming a general superiority of the German race (and those “Germanized” to became a part of it) over everybody else, neither part of your schema is realistic.

germany had 25000 castles
same proportion can be expected in a germanized eastern europe

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

Unless you are explicitly assuming a general superiority of the German race (and those “Germanized” to became a part of it) over everybody else, neither part of your schema is realistic.

no
my hopes are in higher proportion of castles, more conscription, more united force
HRE was more centralized than Kievan Rus

i am not racist not even racialist
i think appearance doesn't correlate with anything biological other than appearance
germans are more of an ethnicity than a race

 

[alexmilman]

germany had 25000 castles
same proportion can be expected in a germanized eastern europe

Taking into an account impracticality of the source idea, it does not really make too much sense to talk about the rest: Germanization of the whole Eastern Europe all the way to Ural in X - mid-XIII was unrealistic. Absorption of the relatively small and culturally backward cultures was happening in the Baltic region but Hungary, Poland and Kievan Rus did not belong to this category and, if anything, a forced Germanization would cause the same effect as Jurchen conquest caused in the Northern China: a massive defection to the invader.

Leaving this aside, it would be impossible to create an effective defensive perimeter 4,500 km long and the castles on a plain do not work as such a perimeter. Having countless castles also means that you don’t have troops left for a field army (in the HRE circa XIII fighting was done by the military class, aka the castle owners) and with a properly organized invasion (as opposite to a looting raid) the invader’s task is trivial: ignore the castles with their tiny isolated garrisons, take the big important cities and let it be known that each an every castle owner has two options: (a) to acknowledge invader’s authority and continue to live as before or (b) to resist and to be exterminated with your whole family. In the CA or Rus or China the Mongols did not explicitly take each and every village or town so how would it be different?

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

Hungary, Poland and Kievan Rus

no Hungary is not in middle of ural and germany

 

[alexmilman]

no
my hopes are in higher proportion of castles, more conscription, more united force
HRE was more centralized than Kievan Rus

i am not racist not even racialist
i think appearance doesn't correlate with anything biological other than appearance
germans are more of an ethnicity than a race

Then, by the reasons I already explained, your schema is not going to work because the Getmans did not have any noticeable military edge over their Eastern neighbors and their warfare system had very serious limitations, especially when the big distances were involved. The HRE was not centralized more than Kievan or Vladimir Rus or Poland. Anyway, you are talking about Europe all the way to Ural to be Germsnized.

“Conscription” is anachronistic in Europe circa XIII (but did exist in the Mongolian state) and various types of the city militias were of a questionable quality and not suited for the operations outside immediate region.

 

[alexmilman]

no Hungary is not in middle of ural and germany

Of course, it is not in a middle of Ural. Who said that it is? Look at the map and hopefully you’ll figure out why it can be important for your fantasy.

 

[Gloss]

What if HRE centralizes in Early Middle Ages and expands and Germanizes upto and heavily fortifies the Urals and Caucasus mountain passes

Strictly speaking "up to the Urals and Caucasus" is a huge hurdle, to this day various non Russian minorities still hold local majorities in this region and the Germans have to colonize lands held by millons of West and East Slavs to begin with.

by the time mongols came ambushing any invaders
will they keep Mongols out europe or will Mongols conquer more of europe ?

Why would they?

It is really a nonsensical question for a bunch of reasons.
1. The HRE was never a polity capable of expanding eastward in the way described. Not only was it not interested, many other powers ranging from Poland to the Khazars to (later) Keiv stood in the way.

To be honest I don't think Poland is such a big barrier especially if you accelerate the eastern expansion considerably so that they conquer the region before a Moravian/Bohemia or Polish state could be established.

2. 'Germanizing' is a weird word for this place and time, and not really how the HRE worked.

That's more or less what happened though.

 

[alexmilman]

germany had 25000 castles
same proportion can be expected in a germanized eastern europe

Learn to quote correctly: 25,000 castles, palaces and mansions. Which means that (a) much less than 25,000 castles and (b) nothing about them being built by the 13th century.

As a side note, if you are providing a link, please be sure that the site does not require any extra settings, etc. Thanks.