List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Kellan Sullivan]

True, the 1525 deaths I imagine are from a epidemic (say measles). Margaret's death date is a typo, I planned a 1564 death for her, probably in childbirth, like Louise (though I didn't name their husbands as I'm unsure about the matches: James V of Scotland will marry Marie de Bourbon-Vendôme here, though Margaret could end up in Savoy like her OTL namesake). For Françoise, well it's just "bad luck" if I may say so.

Maybe a Polish match for one of them - if Sigismund never meets Barbie Radziwill, his mom hoped for a match with Anna d'Este. Marguerite de Valois was offered around a bit as well - a second wife to Karl V in 1540, then a potential match for either Felipe II/Maximilian II. Anne Boleyn's definitely going to want a French princess for her son (how Eleonore feels about the idea is less clear, she refused to meet Anne OTL).

Also, Renée might get the king of Navarre here (instead of Marguerite d'Angoulême) for the simple reason that François would want her to marry domestically so he could control her husband. Navarre was essentially - by this point - a dog that came when Paris whistled. And a prince of Viana/heir to Brittany would definitely be paired with one of François' daughters.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I already wanted to see Margeret and John get married to settle the regency dispute, but hey that's just me.

Glad to help.
I wasn't sure if Marge and John's eldest daughter, Margaret Jr would be considered "high ranked" enough for someone like the dauphin of France (I suspect her paternal half-sister would probably have been more appealing).

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Richard II marries Charles VI's sister instead of daughter (Charles' youngest sister outlives John of Berry ITTL)-tree expanded

Catherine of France (1378-1414) m. a) John of Berry (1375-1394) b) Richard II (1367-1405) King of England

1b) Edward IV (1398-1446) King of England 1405, m. Isabella of Portugal (1397-1471)

1) Richard (1419-1425)​

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2) Edward V (1421-1470) King of England 1446, m. Eleanor of Navarre (1426-1479)​

1) Isabella (1443-1468) m. Alexander IV (1435-1466) King of Scotland​

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2) Eleanor (1446)​

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3) Blanche (1448)​

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4) Richard III (1451-1476) King of England 1470, m. Joanna of Portugal (1452-1490)​

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5) Edward (1453-1470​

3) John (1422-1474) Duke of Clarence, m. Anne Holland (d. 1486)​

1) Edward (1449-1454)​

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2) John II (1452-1510) King of England 1476, m. a) Elizabeth Talbot (d. 1487) b) Margaret of Scotland (1473-1529) see below​

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3) Anne (1454-1459)​

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4) Catherine (1457-1530) m. Francis II (1433-1488) Duke of Brittany​

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5) Richard (1460)​

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6) Henry (1462-1466)​

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7) Anne (1463-1516) m. King of Denmark*​

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8) Isabella (1465-1523) m. James IV (1467-1520) King of Scotland, see below​

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4) Catherine (1424-1425)​

2b) Joan (1400-1455) m. James II (1394-1437) King of Scotland

1) James (1424-1427)​

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2) Joan (1426-1429)​

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3) Annabella (1428-1485) m. Louis XI (1423-1483) King of France​

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1) Louise (1447-1500) m. Nicholas (1448-1483) Duke of Lorraine​

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2) Louis (1449)​

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3) Charles (1452-1457)​

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6) Louis XII (1454-1484) King of France 1483, m. Anne of Savoy (1455-1480)​

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7) Philip (1455-1508) Duke of Berry, m. Joanna of Bourbon-Vendôme (1465-1511)​

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4) Catherine (1430-1431)​

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5) James II (1433-1441) King of Scotland 1437​

6) Alexander IV (1435-1468) King of Scotland 1441, m. Isabel of England (1443-1468)​

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1) James III (1464-1469) King of Scotland 1468​

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2) Annabella (1466)​

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3) Alexander V (1468-1471) King of Scotland 1469​

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7) David III (1437-1486) King of Scotland 1471, m. Margaret Gordon​

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1) James IV (1467-1520) King of Scotland 1486, m. Isabella of England (1465-1523)​

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2) David (1469-1474)​

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3) Robert (1472-1495) Duke of Ross​

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4) Margaret (1473-1529) m. John II (1452-1510) King of England​

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* Descendant of Eric of Pomerania and his ATL wife (he'd not marry Philippa of Lancaster ITTL)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

(he'd not marry Philippa of Lancaster ITTL)

maybe his match to Isabelle de Bourbon goes through? Marge wanted a French match at one point.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

maybe his match to Isabelle de Bourbon goes through? Marge wanted a French match at one point.

Or ATL daughter of Hedwig d'Anjou (that is a bit of cliche in Polish TLs, but Hedwig's daughter, if she has any, usually marries Eric).

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Ulrik, Prince of Denmark, marries Anna Vasa (as her father John III of Sweden planned) and succeedes his brother Christian IV (who ITTL dies young) on the thrones of Denmark and Norway (thus ending Frederick-Christian alternation-Danish monarchs ITTL would have more diverse set of names).

Ulrik I (1578- 1524) King of Denmark 1599, m, Anna Vasa (1568-1625)

1) Frederick III (1599-1650) King of Denmark 1624, m. Sophia Eleanor of Saxony (1609-1671)

1) Ulrik II (1628-1663) King of Denmark 1650, m. Mary of England (1631-1660)​

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4) Anna (1629-1633)​

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3) Sophia (1631)​

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4) Elizabeth (1633-1686) m. Charles I Louis (1617-1680) Elector Palatine​

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5) Frederick (1636-1656)​

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7) Anna (1637)​

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8) Christian (1639-1642)​

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9) John III (1642-1700) King o Poland 1672, m. Eleanor of Austria (1653-1697)​

2) Sophia (1601-1653) m. George William (1595-1640) Elector of Brandenburg

1) Anna Catherine (1623-1641)​

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2) John Frederick (1626)​

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3) Eleanor Sophia (1629-1679) m. William VI (1629-1663) Landgrave of Hesse​

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4) John William (1631-1634)​

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5) George Frederick (1633-1655) Elector of Brandenburg 1640​

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7) Christian Augustus (1635-1667) Elector of Brandenburg 1655, m. Dorothea Sophie of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (1636-1689)​

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[HortenseMancini]

Derby was part of the Lancastrian inheritance of Blanche. However I don't see it being alienated from the main demense.

Richmond would work if the Bretons lose it as OTL. Prior to that he can go untitled (see Bedford, Gloucester and Cambridge).

Edit: Regarding the Hereford thingamajig, if Richard marries a Bohun it'll be Eleanor, and I sincerely doubt Gaunt will be able to screw him out of half his wife's lands. It's easier to antagonize the fifth son of a dead king than to antagonize the second son of a living one. Besides with a Bohun match Richard will probably be Duke of Hereford not York.

so richard as duke of hereford, john as duke of richmond - sounds fine to me

also john of gaunt was given the title earl of richmond as an infant so that makes it very appropriate imho

 

[Brita]

Updated tree for France and Brittany. Thanks to @Kellan Sullivan

Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany miscarries in late 1517 and dies.

Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1514) m. a) Charles VIII of France (1470-1498), b) Louis XII of France (1462-1515)

1a) Charles Orlando of France (1492-1495)​

2a) Francis (1493)​

3a) stillborn daughter (1495)​

4a) Charles of France (1496)​

5a) Francis of France (1497-1498)​

6a) Anne of France (1498)​

1b) Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1517) m. Francis I, King of France​

1) Louise of France, Duchess of Brittany (1515-1518)​

2) Charlotte of France, Duchess of Brittany (1516-1535)​

3) miscarried son (1517)​

2b) stillborn twins (1500)​

3b) Francis of France (1503)​

4b) miscarriages (1505-1509)​

5b) Renée of France, Duchess of Brittany (1510-1575) b. Francis, Dauphin of France (1523-1525), m. Henry II, King of Navarre (1503-1555)​

1) Joan of Navarre (1528-1605)​

2) Henry III and I, King of Navarre and Duke of Brittany (1530-1597) m. Madeleine of France (1533-1592)​

3) Anne of Navarre (1533-1602)​

4) Catherine of Navarre (1537-1584)​

5) John of Navarre (1540-1589)​

6b) A son (1512)​

Francis I, King of France (1494-1547) m. a) Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1517), b) Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558)

1a) Louise of France, Duchess of Brittany (1515-1518)​

2a) Charlotte of France, Duchess of Brittany (1516-1535)​

3a) miscarried son (1517)​

4b) Louise of France (1520-1546)​

5b) Françoise of France (1521-1534)​

6b) Francis, Dauphin of France (1523-1525) b. Renée of France, Duchess of Brittany (1510-1575)​

7b) Eleanor of France (1525)​

8b) Francis II, King of France (1528-1587) m. Mary of Scotland (1538-1610) [1]​

9b) Charles of France, Duke of Orléans (1528-1564)​

10b) Margaret of France (1530-1564) m. Sigismund II, King of Poland (1520-1572)​

11b) Madeleine of France (1533-1592) m. Henry III and I, King of Navarre and Duke of Brittany (1530-1597)​

[1] Daughter of James V of Scotland and Marie de Bourbon-Vendôme.

 

[Kynan]

Scenario: Charles III, Duke of Bourbon agrees to marry Louise of Savoy to settle the succession issue and surprisingly has issue.

Charles III, Duke of Bourbon (b.1490: d.1545) m. Suzanne de Bourbon (b.1491: d.1521) (a), Louise of Savoy (b.1476: d.1531) (b), Amalia of Cleves (b.1517: d.1586) (c)

1a) Francis, Count of Clermont (b.1517: c.1518)​

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2a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)​

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3a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)​

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4b) Charles IV, Duke of Bourbon (b.1524: d.1572) m. Antoinette of Guise (b.1531: d.1555) (a), Marie de Bourbon, Duchess of Estouteville (b.1539: d.1601) (b)​

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1a) Louis XIII, King of France (b.1546: d.1598) m. Marguerite, Princess of France (b.1553: d.1615) (a)​

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- had no issue​

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2a) Jean, Duke of Auvergne (b.1548: d.1597) m. Elisabeth Renata of Lorraine (b.1574: d.1635) (a)​

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- had no issue​

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3a) Stillborn Son (c.1550)​

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4a) Marie de Bourbon (b.1551: d.1558)​

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5a) Jacques, Duke of Alencon (b.1552: d.1594) m. Constantia Eriksdotter (b.1560: d.1649) (a)​

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1a) Charles X, King of France (b.1591)​

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2a) Francois de Bourbon, Duke of Alencon (b.1592)​

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3a) Alan de Bourbon, Duke of Angouleme (b.1593)​

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4a) Eric de Bourbon, Count of Forez (b.1594: d.1604)​

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6a) Stillborn Son (c.1555)​

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7b) Stillborn Son (c.1560)​

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8b) Helene de Bourbon (b.1565: 1599) m. Charles, Margrave of Burgau (b.1560: d.1618) (a)​

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1a) Stillborn Son (c.1586)​

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2a) Alexander, Margrave of Burgau (b.1590)​

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3a) Marie of Austria (b.1592)​

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4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1595)​

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5a) Charles of Austria, Bishop of Constance (b.1596)​

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6a) Eleanor of Austria (b.1598: d.1599)​

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7a) Sigismund of Austria (b.1599: d.1599)​

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9b) Simon de Bourbon, Duke of Estouteville (b.1571: d.1652) m. Eleonora de' Medici (b.1591: d.1617) (a),​

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5c) Gilbert, Count of Montpensier (b.1540: d.1610) m. Mary I, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1576) (a)​

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1a) James VI, King of Scotland (b.1563: d.1589) m. Catherine de Bourbon, Princess of Navarre (b.1559: d.1604) (a)​

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1a) Mary de Bourbon, Princess of Scotland (b.1584: d.1585)​

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2a) Joanna de Bourbon, Princess of Scotland (b.1586: d.1589)​

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3a) James de Bourbon, Duke of Rothesay (b.1590: d.1596)​

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4a) Charles I, King of England, Scotland and Ireland (b.1593)​

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5a) Margaret de Bourbon, Princess of Scotland (b.1595: d.1595)​

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2a) Mary de Bourbon, Princess of Scotland (b.1565: d.1567)​

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3a) Elizabeth de Bourbon, Princess of Scotland (b.1565: d.1565)​

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4a) Robert de Bourbon, Duke of Albany (b.1568: d.1620) m. Margherita Gonzaga (b.1564: d.1618) (a)​

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1a) James de Bourbon, Duke of Albany (b.1601)​

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2a) Amalia de Bourbon (b.1602)​

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3a) Alexander de Bourbon, Duke of Suffolk (b.1604)​

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5a) Francis de Bourbon, Prince of Scotland (b.1570: d.1570)​

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6a) Joanna de Bourbon, Princess of Scotland (b.1573: d.1597) m. Christian IV, King of Denmark (b.1577: d.1648) (a)​

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- had no issue​

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7a) Louis de Bourbon, Prince of Scotland (b.1575: d.1575)​

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6c) Clara de Bourbon (b.1542: d.1600) m. Leonor d'Orleans, Duke of Longueville (b.1540: d.1573) (a),​

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1a) Henri d'Orleans (b.1561: d.1572)​

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2a) Francis d'Orleans (b.1562: d.1566)​

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3a) Jean d'Orleans (b.1564: d.1567)​

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4a) Marie d'Orleans (b.1566: d.1566)​

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5a) Stillborn Son (c.1567)​

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6a) Charles d'Orleans (b.1568: d.1568)​

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7a) Nicholas d'Orleans, Duke of Longueville (b.1569: d.1598) m. Charlotte Catherine de La Trémoille (b.1568: d.1629) (a)​

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1a) Catherine Jeanne d'Orleans (b.1591)​

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2a) Marie d'Orleans (b.1592)​

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3a) Stillborn Son (c.1594)​

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4a) Renee d'Orleans (b.1595)​

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5a) Marguerite d'Orleans (b.1596: d.1598)​

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6a) Sophie d'Orleans (b.1598)​

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7a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1599)​

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8a) Eleonore d'Orleans (b.1570: d.1571)​

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9a) Stillborn Son (c.1572)​

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7c) Francis, Count of Forez (b.1544: d.1560)​

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

4b) Charles IV, Duke of Bourbon (b.1524: d.1572)

Those who know better can correct me, but Louise would be deep in her forties by this point - that was part of the reason that Charles refused the marriage in the first place - and her last child was thirty years prior. Wouldn't a pregnancy be likely to kill her? Meaning Charlie might be on the lookout for a new bride a lot quicker

 

[HortenseMancini]

Wouldn't a pregnancy be likely to kill her?

A pregnancy at ~48 is risky, sure, but I don’t think it’s a given that it kills her. It can definitely work out.

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Those who know better can correct me, but Louise would be deep in her forties by this point - that was part of the reason that Charles refused the marriage in the first place - and her last child was thirty years prior. Wouldn't a pregnancy be likely to kill her? Meaning Charlie might be on the lookout for a new bride a lot quicker

A pregnancy at ~48 is risky, sure, but I don’t think it’s a given that it kills her. It can definitely work out.

@Kynan

Not to be that person but the chances of naturally conceiving at 48 are pretty low. Like, call the Vatican and report a miracle low. Not to mention, older moms have a higher risk of postpartum hemorrhages, which still kills millions of women in advanced countries today, so I'm going to take a stab in the dark that her chances of survival are pretty subpar.

 

[Kynan]

Those who know better can correct me, but Louise would be deep in her forties by this point - that was part of the reason that Charles refused the marriage in the first place - and her last child was thirty years prior. Wouldn't a pregnancy be likely to kill her? Meaning Charlie might be on the lookout for a new bride a lot quicker

Likely but not impossible. Which is part of the fun!

 

[RedKing]

View attachment 670518

I think you posted this in the wrong thread. This belongs in the alternate info boxes thread.

 

[Sarthak]

I think you posted this in the wrong thread. This belongs in the alternate info boxes thread.

ah sorry. thanks for informing. will bring it down.

 

[Brita]

Those who know better can correct me, but Louise would be deep in her forties by this point - that was part of the reason that Charles refused the marriage in the first place - and her last child was thirty years prior. Wouldn't a pregnancy be likely to kill her? Meaning Charlie might be on the lookout for a new bride a lot quicker

I'm not a doctor but I remember a doc I know once spoke about a woman who'd had her first child when she was quite young (around 20 or younger) and her second child when she was over 40. All went well for her.
Of course one could say the conditions weren't the same than back in the 16th century but still (and anyway, as I once told a friend of mine, I did my family's genealogy and out of all the women whose date of death I know, only one or two died in childbirth, which is quite a low rate compared to the number of women in my family tree!)

 

[VVD0D95]

Inspired a convo I had a long time ago with @The_Most_Happy

Edward VIII doesn't turn out quite the wasteman.

Edward VIII, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Emperor of the British Empire (b.1894: d.1956) m Irene Curzon, 2nd Baroness Ravensdale (b.1896: d.1966) in 1920

Issue:

Mary, Princess Royal (b.1921)

George of Wales (b.1922: d.1926)

Edward IX, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Emperor of the British Empire (b.1924)

Princess Cynthia of the United Kingdom (b.1928)

Albert, Duke of Clarence and Avondale (b.1932)

 

[isabella]

Isabelle of Burgundy, Yorkist Queen
POD: Catherine of France lived slightly longer than OTL, dying in childbirth in 1448

Charles I, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1433) married a) Catherine of France (1428-1448) in 1440, b) Isabella of Bourbon (1437-1465) in 1454, c) Margaret of York (b. 1446) in 1468

1. a) Isabelle (b. 1448) married Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442) in 1463
2. b) Agnes (b. 1455) married Nicholas of Anjou, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1448) in 1471
3. b) Mary (b. 1457) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1459) in 1475
4. b) Philip IV, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1460) married Anne of France (b. 1461) without surviving issues

Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442) married Isabella of Burgundy (b. 1448) in 1463

1. Edward V, King of England (b. 1464) married Charlotte of France (b. 1466)
2. Cecily (b. 1465) married John VI, Duke of Brittany (b. 1463)
3. Isabella (1466-1468)
4. Richard, Duke of York (b. 1467) married Isabelle II, Duchesse of Lorraine (b. 1472)
5. Anne (b. 1469) married Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)
6. John, Duke of Bedford and Norfolk (b. 1471) married Anne Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)
7. Catherine (b. 1473) married James IV, King of Scotland (b. 1473)

 

[HortenseMancini]

Isabelle of Burgund, Yorkist Queen
POD: Catherine of France lived slightly longer than OTL, dying in childbirth in 1448

Charles I, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1433) married a) Catherine of France (1428-1448) in 1440, b) Isabella of Bourbon (1437-1465) in 1454, c) Margaret of York (b. 1446) in 1468

1. a) Isabelle (b. 1448) married Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442) in 1463
2. b) Agnes (b. 1455) married Nicholas of Anjou, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1448) in 1471
3. b) Mary (b. 1457) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1459) in 1475
4. b) Philip IV, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1460) married Anne of France (b. 1461) without surviving issues

Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442) married Isabella of Burgundy (b. 1448) in 1463

1. Edward V, King of England (b. 1464) married Charlotte of France (b. 1466)
2. Cecily (b. 1465) married John VI, Duke of Brittany (b. 1463)
3. Isabella (1466-1468)
4. Richard, Duke of York (b. 1467) married Isabelle II, Duchesse of Lorraine (b. 1472)
5. Anne (b. 1469) married Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)
6. John, Duke of Bedford and Norfolk (b. 1471) married Anne Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)
7. Catherine (b. 1473) married James IV, King of Scotland (b. 1473)

What happens to burgundy here after philip iv dies? do agnes and nicholas claim it? or does it go to edward v/isabella

 

[vandevere]

What happens to burgundy here after philip iv dies? do agnes and nicholas claim it? or does it go to edward v/isabella

If it goes to Edward V and Isabella, it's going to be HYW 2: Electric Boogaloo...