I was expecting something far more explicit. Then again, it was a different time.
Swearing wasn't really the done thing in public, especially where women or children might hear. Euphemisms were commonplace in written communication too. I'm a little surprised he was so explicit to his mother.

Remember also that all missives from armed forces personnel were censored.
 
12.24 Tornado and the wings of change
12.24 Tornado and the wings of change

With the Monarch engine Tornado now entering service Sydney Camm and the Hawker design team could devote more time to other projects. Two were currently in progress and would benefit from more resources.

First there was the radial engines version of the Tornado, a prototype of this was already flying with an eighteen cylinder, fifty four and a quarter litre Alvis Alcides engine current capable of delivering just over two thousand horse power. Alvis were predicting a power output of around two thousand two hundred and fifty horse power by the end of nineteen forty one and even more horse power with better high altitude performance when the two speed two stage supercharger version was ready for production.

Comparative handling trials between the standard Tornado aircraft with counter rotating propellers and the single propeller on the Alvis engine version were ongoing at the A&A.E.E.

As there was some consideration that the current Tornado was potentially over powered by the two thousand four hundred horse power that the H twenty four Monarch engine could produce and that this engine was heavier than needed for the aircraft there was a case to be made for a lighter radial engine that was achieving sufficient power that there would be little performance lost in terms of climb and speed and possibly more agility in combat manoeuvres.

The rational in the Ministry of Aircraft Production was that with production capacity for the Fairy engine already close to the theoretical maximum, then having an alternative engine was a prudent development. Initial trials with the Alcides were showing that the combination would work very well once the marriage of the airframe and engine had matured.

Currently the exhaust system, oil cooler and the cowling of the engine was causing problems but already the aircraft was almost matching the performance of the Tornado. The decision had been made that this aircraft was sufficiently different from the Tornado to deserve its own name and was now being called the Typhoon I, the Typhoon II would be the Bristol Centaurus engine version which at the moment was delayed by the inability of Bristol Aircraft to deliver a reliable production standard Centaurus engine. Moves to shut down the Centaurus engine project completely so that Bristol could concentrate on both increasing the reliability and production volume of the Hercules had resulted in loud howls of indignation from the Bristol Board and more political pressure, the result of this was that the Bristol company had been given time and resources to work on perfecting the Centaurus engine but with a real time scale and targets to meet.

However a production standard Centaurus was not now due at Hawkers till at least late nineteen forty one.

With the Typhoon one flying with the Alcides engine, development work was in hand to refine the aircraft to the point where it could enter series production as a viable alternative to the Tornado.

The problem for Hawkers and the Ministry of Aircraft Production was find production capacity for another aircraft.

The other project currently Occupying Sydney Camm was what was known as the thin wing fighter project.

Having accepted that the inherent high drag of the ‘thick’ wing as used on the Hurricane, Tornado and Typhoon severely limited both their speed and range this project was looking at designing a new aircraft that basically used as much of the existing production design as possible but married it to a new thinner wing of higher performance potential. The effort here was being concentrated on the Radial engine aircraft as these were considered to require less modification than the Tornado would require to achieve the desired for improvements. Wind tunnel testing had shown that without major redesign of the cooling system on the Tornado the thin wing would not have as much effect on performance as required. To move the chin radiator down to an aft ventral position would require an almost new fuselage design so Sydney Camm and his team were looking for an alternative location for the radiators that did not add crippling levels of drag to the aircraft. At the current time Hawkers’ were working towards having the first thin wing Tempest flying by late summer of Nineteen forty one.

Another reason for the emphasis on getting the radial engine aircraft design completed first was that in the opinion of the AM the planned Monarch engine thin wing Tornado did not offer any advantage over the Martin Baker MB 4 aircraft that was already being test flown and being prepared for production.

Reducing the drag and increasing the general efficiency had become an important part of all the future fighter project after the Tornado/Typhoon for all manufactures, one reason for this was not just the search for higher speeds but also the new requirement for longer range and endurance. The first new fighter to really exemplify these traits would be the Martin Baker MB 3, 4, and 5 which all used the same low drag wing profile and a very low drag cooling system. When the Monarch powered MB 4 entered service as planned at the end of nineteen forty one it would have a range even greater than that of the Spitfire Mark V that was planned to enter service at around the same time. Two prototypes of the MB4 had been built and the visual difference between them was stark. The first was some two feet shorter than the second, also the second prototype had the cockpit moved some three and a half feet further forward. The other striking change was the removal of the dorsal spine and the fitting of a bubble style canopy reminiscent of the canopy fitted to the MB2 aircraft. This increase in overall length encompassed not just the additional fuselage section but a larger fin and rudder these modifications were made to resolve lateral and longitudinal stability problems experience with the original short fuselage prototype. Valentine Baker as the head test pilot had been very pleased with the results of these changes and the efforts to harmonise the controls and give the big fighter as much agility as possible. Keeping control loads within those that an average pilot could cope with under combat conditions required not only a lot of test flying but an increased theoretical knowledge of how those forces were generated. All this was of course time consuming and Martin Baker had a reputation as a ‘perfectionist’ so both the AM and the MAP were keeping a tight rein on him to ensure that the start of production of the aircraft did not get delayed excessively.

What was truly remarkable about the second MB4 prototype was that it was fundamentally structurally virtually un altered from the first aircraft. That was due to the modular construction form adopted by John Martin in that adding an extra half bay into the tail appendage and moving the cockpit forward was as simple as swapping two fuselage bay assemblies around and adding an extra half bay. As for the removal of the dorsal spine that was achieved by simply applying different semi monoque panels to the base structure. In stark contrast to achieve the same for the Mark V Spitfire was necessitating a totally revised design for the rear fuselage and a complete set of new jigs for its production.

With all the modifications the third prototype MB Type Four was now flying in a full RAF operational configuration. The second prototype MB Type Four was also being brought up to this standard whilst the first prototype aircraft was being kept with its original shorter fuselage and dorsal spine to provide comparative data.

At the current time the Aircraft Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down where flying trials with , Spitfire Mark III’S, Spitfire MarkIII/ER, Spitfire PR Mark IV’s and Tornado production aircraft with additionally the Martin Baker Type Four. Comparative testing of these four aircraft against the latest mark of ME 109 captured and a Follond Falcon mark two from the FAA were ongoing. Tests to accurately record the average miles per gallon flown for each aircraft flown under varying load conditions were consuming a lot of flight hours. With the new aircraft, their behaviour under various fuel loading and the consequent shift in the CoG and its effect on the aircraft handling was providing base line parameters that could be used in setting the operational criteria for the aircraft. One result that had become very obvious early in the trials was that both the Tornado and the MB Type Four gained an advantage as their fuel was consumed as for long range economical cruising they had the ability to completely shut down half of the engine and have the remaining engine running at optimum boost and fuel mixture for the altitude. What was also immediately apparent was the increase in cruising speed for any throttle setting of the MB Type Four over the other aircraft. This was reflected in the data that showed that the MB Type Four was not only cruising some thirty miles an hour faster than the Spitfire Mark III but was also doing so whilst achieving comparable miles per gallon flown with an engine of almost double the cubic capacity of the Merlin used in the Spitfire, albeit this was achieved with half the Monarch shut down, so using a comparable engine displacement.
 
Will the increased focus on aerodynamics mean a better Jet Fighter or will the first version still be a Meteor type just more quickly realised?
 
The first jet fighter is flying! sort of, the Westland Whirlwind has been flying since mid 1940 but two prototypes and a test pilot have been lost. Sorting out the problems with both the jets and the airframe is taking time. As to the actual form of the first jet fighter that is still a work in progress. Theis is an update on this being planned in the next few weeks.
 
The first jet fighter is flying! sort of, the Westland Whirlwind has been flying since mid 1940 but two prototypes and a test pilot have been lost. Sorting out the problems with both the jets and the airframe is taking time. As to the actual form of the first jet fighter that is still a work in progress. Theis is an update on this being planned in the next few weeks.

Hawker P.1081 in form........:):)
 
Very interesting. Considering the time lag between drawing board and squadron service this thin wing Tempest isn't going to be facing Germans until mid to late 1943 at the very earliest but they'll be a nasty surprise for poor old Fw190 pilots.
 
PAM aircraft
Aircraft of the PAM. Hawker Tornado I

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Using the 2400HP Version of the H24 Fairy Monarch engine the early production Tornado had a wingspan of Forty two feet, with the larger tail, the length had grown from the original thirty two feet and ten inches to thirty three feet and four inches height to the tip of the counter rotating propeller was fourteen feet.

Performance, top speed at twenty three thousand feet was four hundred and four mile an hour.

With the flaps down stalling speed was sixty one miles an hour and clean the aircraft stalling speed rose to eighty two miles an hour.

Empty weight stood at eight thousand five hundred pounds whilst fully loaded this figure rose to just under eleven thousand pounds though this figure would increase as the A& AEE, carried out more weapons trials on the aircraft and new equipment was fitted.

The operational ceiling was thirty five thousand feet though at this height the controls were sloppy and handling sluggish. Depending on fuel state and load the aircraft could gain around three and a half thousand feet a minute.





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Hawker Typhoon Prototypes.



Early version with Bristol Centaurus engine with collector ring exhaust and solid spine behind cockpit.

No armament fitted at this time.

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Alvis engine Tornado which was now renamed Typhoon, with ejector exhaust system and cockpit hood arrangement. New cowling with oil cooler at bottom.

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This picture below clearly shows the mounting of six heavy Mg’s in each wing. This was trialled as an alternative to the four 20mm cannon arrangement but never saw service.

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The location of the oil cooler radiator in a modified chin fitting is visible here. As is the slight crank in the wing.
 
With this TL reaching the German invasion of Greece, I would like to canvass opinion from the readers of this thread. Currently on this forum there are other TL that are currently exploring the butterflies of a scenario where the British and Commonwealth Forces in Greece are more effective. A core of that discussion is whether a greater proportion of the allied and Greek forces could be evacuated or if the Peloponnese might be held.

Here in the PAM world the scenario is very different, there are no British and Commonwealth troops in Greece, so no large convoy to get bombed in Piraeus harbour. How much faster will the Greek defence collapse or will it not change from OTL?

Without trying to lift off the British and Commonwealth troops how much more of the Greek army might be saved?

Would the Greek Government accept a British offer to evacuate troops from Western Thrace? Where would troops from Western Thrace be taken?

So how many Greek troops could be got out to Crete and North Africa? How many would actually be willing to go?

These are all questions I am trying to answer, So suggestions, ideas and any other input please.
 
The collapse of Greece really can't be significantly faster as roads and vehicle speeds / maintenance limit the pace of the advance.

I'm unconvinced the RN will seek to lift Greek soldiers from Greece when most of them want to return - you end up with what happened in France where many of the French rescued at Dunkirk ended up back in France just in time for the surrender. Good for them and their families but does nothing for the war effort.

Certainly RN may facilitate some of the Cretan troops who virtually deserted in an effort to get back home - this may mean that a division or two gets to Crete fully formed. But I can't see a large scale evacuation of Greek forces - the Greek government won't agree to it, the troops won't want to leave Greece and the RN won't want to risk ships to save troops that will probably disperse in any case.

Churchill will be chewing tha carpet at the moment at the RAF and RN (and by extension the Army) inability to support their allies effectively and the loss of Greece without British support will go down poorly in USA (one of Churchill's legitimate concerns). A success in North Africa and a robust defence of Crete / invasion of Rhodes would do something to moderate the impact of a timid loss in Greece but politics should be a factor somewhere.
 
An additional factor against a significant evacuation of Greek Army troops from mainland Greece is here Greece has effectively been abandoned by Britain, it's the logical thing to do in the strategic context but it will have an impact on Greek and Greek Army opinion so the appetite for being evacuated and fighting on as part of a "Free Greek" force is going to be significantly less than OTL. The exception to this is the Cretan division who would probably quite like to be evacuated home and who probably would be grateful and thus willing to fight on under a British banner. But disentangling them from the disintegrating Greek Army is almost certainly impossible, it would certainly require a credibility stretching level of British understanding of the situation on the ground, communication with the troops in question and coordination with the rest of the Greek army.
 
ITTL, Churchill's codicil to Antony Eden that the sending of Commonwealth troops to Greece was not a given and that another 'Norway' should be avoided has been heeded. Yes there will be political fallout but remember this is the PM who ordered the RN to destroy the French fleet at anchor in North Africa.
Separating the Greek 5th Division and getting it out to Crete is I think impractical in the current conditions. The best is that dribs and drabs of the 5th Division make it to ports and can be lifted off. The RAF is stronger ITTL compared to OTL and as yet Piraeus harbour is relatively undamaged.
OTL some Fifty thousand troops were evacuated from Greece , ITL a figure as large as this for Greek troops could be realistic. Also in OTL the Greek Government was evacuated to Crete so ITL that is also possible.
So Is it Unrealistic to have a division or two's worth of Greek troops refitting on Crete by the time the Germans contemplate an invasion?
 
ITTL, Churchill's codicil to Antony Eden that the sending of Commonwealth troops to Greece was not a given and that another 'Norway' should be avoided has been heeded. Yes there will be political fallout but remember this is the PM who ordered the RN to destroy the French fleet at anchor in North Africa.
Separating the Greek 5th Division and getting it out to Crete is I think impractical in the current conditions. The best is that dribs and drabs of the 5th Division make it to ports and can be lifted off. The RAF is stronger ITTL compared to OTL and as yet Piraeus harbour is relatively undamaged.
OTL some Fifty thousand troops were evacuated from Greece , ITL a figure as large as this for Greek troops could be realistic. Also in OTL the Greek Government was evacuated to Crete so ITL that is also possible.
So Is it Unrealistic to have a division or two's worth of Greek troops refitting on Crete by the time the Germans contemplate an invasion?
All depends , if the Greek Government realises defeat is certain on the mainland ( in private of course, due to the lack of Allied ground troops ) and then makes a conscious choice to try and hold Crete as a national redoubt, orders can be given for a retreat with rear-guard action early enough for a larger amount of troops and equipment to make it. If its a last minute bug out, not so much.
 
Without the British Army on the Greek mainland, are the Germans going to be pushing as hard as they did in OTL, or are they going to sit back and mutter obsecnities about the incompetent Italians?
 
Things to think about for this question

1. With no troops on the ground would the Yugoslavs coup still occur?
2. Around march the greeks were getting very short of ammo, several in calibers the British did not use. Would the extra shipping free up be used to transfer more of the caputred Itailian weapons to them.
3. Would the Greeks use the Haliacmon Line? If not would this result in a quicker collapse once the Metaxas Line is broken
4. With no Greek adventure would Churchill instead push Op MANDIBLES to occur, which looks poorly planned with a good chance of being Gallipoli in the Dodecanese
5. How much extra RAF support is there in Greece and has this changed the lines in Albania

My feeling is there be no Haliacmon line and so once the metaxas line is broken there be a quicker collapse as there be little been it and Athens. With most of the Greek army stuck in Albania. There only be the possible trainiees and other around Athens when it falls being able to get out. While most of the british 6th Div is lost on Op Mandibles.
 
Unfortunately the Greek army and Government are as in OTL unlikely to contemplate any form of withdrawal on the Italian front in Albania. All that is practical ITL is that more Greek Troops can get onto the available shipping and the Germans capture far less fuel, oil and food. That in itself might slow the German advance by a day or two.

ITTL Operation Mandibles has already been cancelled and the Maritime lift capability used to get Materials and men to both Crete and West of Benghazi
 
OTL some Fifty thousand troops were evacuated from Greece , ITL a figure as large as this for Greek troops could be realistic. Also in OTL the Greek Government was evacuated to Crete so ITL that is also possible.
So Is it Unrealistic to have a division or two's worth of Greek troops refitting on Crete by the time the Germans contemplate an invasion?

I think it is unlikely that in the absence of a major British commitment the Greek government is going to be eager to pre-emptively evacuate either itself or major numbers of troops to Crete. If they weren't willing to abandon Albania until too late they won't abandon Greece. I'm sure given better than OTL air cover and without the need to withdraw British troops the RN can evacuate even more Greeks than OTL. Though as was said upthread how many would actually be willing to sign up for a Greek Legion and spending the next four years fighting in British khaki is another question.
 
That is the very question I am trying to fathom out. With the Greek Government forming an Administration on Crete will men follow them. They would be going to Crete to defend Greek soil and defy the Axis by keeping alive the flame of Greek independence. The Cancellation of the Greek force W makes a huge difference to the possible outcome in North Africa. Having a couple of Greek divisions reforming on Crete and able to Garrison and defend the Island is also a major boost.
I shall think on and scheme out alternative variations.
 
When the Germans are racing past Thermopylae and the bulk of the Greek Army is surrounded and being destroyed in the North I am sure the Greek government and what troops they have on hand will be very glad to get onto any passing RN ship and head to Crete. The government will soon relocate to London just like all the other exile governments though they'll leave an administration in Crete. As for the Army some of those men will be willing to fight until Greece is free, others just don't want to get killed in a futile last stand and will gladly return to their mainland homes if they can. Others are Cretans who will want to return home. I think if you want Crete to hold it needs to be held by the RAF and the British Army, though considering how marginal the OTL Operation Mercury was a stronger RAF contingent and Cretean peasants with pitchforks could probably do the job. If the RAF can prevent the Luftwaffe flying in the Gebirgstruppen the Fallschirmjäger are doomed.
 
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Driftless

Donor
Greece falls, more-or-less as OTL?

IF Crete is held, and conditions are much more favorable than historically, would some additional Greek mainland soldiers progressively make their way to Crete at a later time? There would be some historical precedent there from other occupied countries, making their way to serve in their exile forces and governements.
 
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