WW2 WI: Wallies Declare War on Switzerland?

1) Switzerland is a mountainous, landlocked country located in Western Europe. For most of its history, the country of Switzerland has preferred to not get involved in the affairs of other nations. Instead it has more or less dedicated itself to a policy of permanent neutrality every time war breaks out on the continent.

2) During the Second World War, almost the entire European continent was consumed in conflict. As you could guess, Switzerland was officially neutral. That being said however, there were many incidents and issues that could have drawn the nation into the war:

A) First was the issue of Western Allies violating Swiss air space, which led to a unofficial air war between the two factions, with Germany even helping the Swiss.


B) Second was the economic links between Switzerland and Nazi Germany. They provided Germany coal, aluminum, manufactured goods, electricity, railway use, and banking services.

C) There were many important US military officials who wished for conflict with the Swiss, falsely believing they were secretly allied with the Germans. Military officials include General Henry H. Arnold (commander of US Army Air Force).

D) Axis spies were based out of Switzerland for intelligence operations.

3) So my question is, is it possible with the combinations of all of these events as well with a few possible pods to get the Western Allies to declare war on Switzerland, and if so, how well would the fight go for both sides, and what happens to Switzerland post war?
 
Damn unlikely, Switzerland had a well armed well trained army in some of the most defendable terrain in Europe and the Allies had bigger fish to fry. If it did something that stupid you can add maybe a 100,000 casualties and a month or two to the war.
 

Maxell

Banned
Damn unlikely, Switzerland had a well armed well trained army in some of the most defendable terrain in Europe and the Allies had bigger fish to fry. If it did something that stupid you can add maybe a 100,000 casualties and a month or two to the war.
Well I'm sure switzerland would loose, even if they do a good job fighting them off. But yeah this is borderline ASB. One thing is for sure though, if this ever did happen switzerland would hate the west to it's bones.
 
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CalBear

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Entirely pointless, and, far more importantly, counterproductive.

The Swiss, along with Sweden, occupy a critical, sometime underappreciated, place in international politics. They are seen, pretty much by one and all, as true neutrals (which does not mean that they are seen as angels, more that they are less likely to take sides in any dispute that does not directly involve them than other players, including the Vatican). They are where hostile powers can meet, often in completely deniable fashion*, to work out issues that can be determined to be of mutual benefit.

The Swiss, and a couple other true neutrals, are indispensable.

*Many moons ago, I had a teacher who explained it this way (this is based on an actual incident, although the specific players may/may not be the ones involved in this specific event). The Swiss Foreign Minister has a reception for all accredited diplomats. At some point after dinner, while the usual diplomatic schmoozing is taking place, the U.S., 3rd Reich, and several other ambassadors are in a side room admiring some bit of traditional Swiss art being fawned over by someone in the Swish government. After everyone had given polite attention to the official, everyone leaves the room, and the door is closed as the Swiss official departs. Everyone, that is, except the U.S. and Nazi representatives who have spent the entire time giving polite attention to the piece of art being admired while staring daggers at each other. Sometime later, the Swiss official returns to the room and discovers, to his horror, that he left the Nazi and U.S. officials in the room, alone, with the door closed!!! When he enters the men at still staring daggers at each other, seeming not to have more or changed expressions for two hours or so, leading the Swiss official to apologize profusely for leaving the two of you alone. Both of the diplomats accept the official's apologies and leave the room, not saying a single word to the other.

This is, of course, not what actually happened behind those closed doors. Something was discussed, may have come to nothing, may have resulted in some agreement that is secret to this day, nobody knows. Nobody can ever know what happened in the meeting because it didn't happen, ask anyone. "There was NEVER a meeting with those &^#$%**, there never would be. The only good XXX is a dead XXX."

That is how things work. The Swiss have specialized in it for a couple centuries. Works great for them, works great for everyone else. The Swiss, of course, still maintain a strong defensive military and keep their powder dry, just in case someone decides that they are not needed. The rest of the world watches what the Swiss do, policy-wise to see if sides are being taken. Until then Switzerland is where powers meet in hopes of turning the Killing Off.
 
Entirely pointless, and, far more importantly, counterproductive.

The Swiss, along with Sweden, occupy a critical, sometime underappreciated, place in international politics. They are seen, pretty much by one and all, as true neutrals (which does not mean that they are seen as angels, more that they are less likely to take sides in any dispute that does not directly involve them than other players, including the Vatican). They are where hostile powers can meet, often in completely deniable fashion*, to work out issues that can be determined to be of mutual benefit.

The Swiss, and a couple other true neutrals, are indispensable.

*Many moons ago, I had a teacher who explained it this way (this is based on an actual incident, although the specific players may/may not be the ones involved in this specific event). The Swiss Foreign Minister has a reception for all accredited diplomats. At some point after dinner, while the usual diplomatic schmoozing is taking place, the U.S., 3rd Reich, and several other ambassadors are in a side room admiring some bit of traditional Swiss art being fawned over by someone in the Swish government. After everyone had given polite attention to the official, everyone leaves the room, and the door is closed as the Swiss official departs. Everyone, that is, except the U.S. and Nazi representatives who have spent the entire time giving polite attention to the piece of art being admired while staring daggers at each other. Sometime later, the Swiss official returns to the room and discovers, to his horror, that he left the Nazi and U.S. officials in the room, alone, with the door closed!!! When he enters the men at still staring daggers at each other, seeming not to have more or changed expressions for two hours or so, leading the Swiss official to apologize profusely for leaving the two of you alone. Both of the diplomats accept the official's apologies and leave the room, not saying a single word to the other.

This is, of course, not what actually happened behind those closed doors. Something was discussed, may have come to nothing, may have resulted in some agreement that is secret to this day, nobody knows. Nobody can ever know what happened in the meeting because it didn't happen, ask anyone. "There was NEVER a meeting with those &^#$%**, there never would be. The only good XXX is a dead XXX."

That is how things work. The Swiss have specialized in it for a couple centuries. Works great for them, works great for everyone else. The Swiss, of course, still maintain a strong defensive military and keep their powder dry, just in case someone decides that they are not needed. The rest of the world watches what the Swiss do, policy-wise to see if sides are being taken. Until then Switzerland is where powers meet in hopes of turning the Killing Off.

Agreed, this is borderline ASB. Nobody has much to gain from it and quite a bit to lose.
 
The USAF did bomb them a few times but failing the sort of major cock up that seems exceedinngly unlikely its not happening
Switzerland wasn't going to declare war on the US, that would have been suicide. The US can't complain too much about its planes being shot down in neutral airspace, it no doubt considered it "the price of doing business". It would have to be one hell of a major cock up for a full fledged war to happen!
 
Maintaining a few geographically well placed Neutrals is also very useful to provide safe havens for shipwrecked seamen and downed airmen and to provide a base for intelligence gathering and resistance organization support.
 
What exactly do the Western Allies get? A few more dead men and a propaganda opportunity by Axis? Iran was important in resources and strategic position. Switzerland is neither of those
 
Entirely pointless, and, far more importantly, counterproductive.

The Swiss, along with Sweden, occupy a critical, sometime underappreciated, place in international politics. They are seen, pretty much by one and all, as true neutrals (which does not mean that they are seen as angels, more that they are less likely to take sides in any dispute that does not directly involve them than other players, including the Vatican). They are where hostile powers can meet, often in completely deniable fashion*, to work out issues that can be determined to be of mutual benefit.

The Swiss, and a couple other true neutrals, are indispensable.

*Many moons ago, I had a teacher who explained it this way (this is based on an actual incident, although the specific players may/may not be the ones involved in this specific event). The Swiss Foreign Minister has a reception for all accredited diplomats. At some point after dinner, while the usual diplomatic schmoozing is taking place, the U.S., 3rd Reich, and several other ambassadors are in a side room admiring some bit of traditional Swiss art being fawned over by someone in the Swish government. After everyone had given polite attention to the official, everyone leaves the room, and the door is closed as the Swiss official departs. Everyone, that is, except the U.S. and Nazi representatives who have spent the entire time giving polite attention to the piece of art being admired while staring daggers at each other. Sometime later, the Swiss official returns to the room and discovers, to his horror, that he left the Nazi and U.S. officials in the room, alone, with the door closed!!! When he enters the men at still staring daggers at each other, seeming not to have more or changed expressions for two hours or so, leading the Swiss official to apologize profusely for leaving the two of you alone. Both of the diplomats accept the official's apologies and leave the room, not saying a single word to the other.

This is, of course, not what actually happened behind those closed doors. Something was discussed, may have come to nothing, may have resulted in some agreement that is secret to this day, nobody knows. Nobody can ever know what happened in the meeting because it didn't happen, ask anyone. "There was NEVER a meeting with those &^#$%**, there never would be. The only good XXX is a dead XXX."

That is how things work. The Swiss have specialized in it for a couple centuries. Works great for them, works great for everyone else. The Swiss, of course, still maintain a strong defensive military and keep their powder dry, just in case someone decides that they are not needed. The rest of the world watches what the Swiss do, policy-wise to see if sides are being taken. Until then Switzerland is where powers meet in hopes of turning the Killing Off.
Portugal also sort of filled the same role in WW2 with both sides using it for behind the scenes diplomacy and espionage.
 
Well I'm sure switzerland would loose, even if they do a good job fighting them off. But yeah this is borderline ASB. One thing is for sure though, if this ever did happen switzerland would hate the west to it's bones.
Switzerland would be a deadly place to invade. The Swiss are the masters of Alpine warfare and are prepared for invasions.
Define a "war" though. There is a lot of space between the couple of shootdowns that happened and the massive army group sized endeavour that conquering Switzerland would be.

While as https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/members/calbear.1243/ noted, the Swiss have an important role, it isnt hard to see a situation come up where the Americans believe that the Swiss are seriously aiding the Germans in the air war via information. Combine this with a couple of intercepts happening outside of Swiss air space due to pilot error, and suddenly you just might see a half dozen major B17 raids flatten Swiss airfields.

In the unlikely event of a Declaration of war this would STILL likely be all you'd see; why invade the place when they dont have important routes, lack means to attack allied troops AND can have their pesky air force flattened by the same giant mass of bombers that smashed open the air defenses of Germany and destroyed the Luftwaffe.

Anyway, yes a declared war is quite unlikely, but I don't see it as completely implausible. The important negotiations regarding the European Theatre weren't between the Allies and Germans but between the various allies themselves. I do however see an invasion as something absurdly unlikely.
 
Switzerland would be a deadly place to invade. The Swiss are the masters of Alpine warfare and are prepared for invasions.
I don't see why they would invade, even after they had declared war. They may bomb Switzerland a bit more though. And attrire the Swiss airforce.

There's really no reason to invade Switzerland, because the main enemy is Germany. So the goal of the allies is to occupy the German heartland. Meaning the war on the ground would be roughly go as OTL: after D-day the push of the allies is to the Ruhr. They're not going to divert divisions/armies towards Switzerland, unless Switzerland is going to attack. Which would be migthy stupid of them to do so.

What I see happening is that after Germanies surrender, the allies offer a peaceagreement which the Swiss accept (unless the allies want to divide Switzerland, but why would they want to do that? They didn't do it wih Italy). Or the Swiss offer a peaceagreent,which the allies will accept (unless the Swiss will make some ridiculous demands).
 
I can see one semi-plausible scenario where this occurs:
Sometime after the Fall of France but before Stalingrad, Hitler decides that it’s time to deal with Switzerland. After all, it’s nothing but a perverse race-mixing experiment that’s ruining perfectly good Germans with Italy and French culture. So he gets together with Mussolini, the two mobilize a significantly threatening army, deploy to the Swiss border, and deliver an ultimatum that due to a atrocities against German and Italian minorities, Switzerland must allow its government to be reorganized to the satisfaction of the Axis or face invasion. The Swiss, for whatever reason, lose their nerve and give in. A rump puppet Switzerland is created after Germany and Italy take what they want. When the USA gets involved, they declare war on Switzerland as part of a blanket declaration against the Axis.

Particularly plausible? No, not really, but it’s the most likely way I can see for war to break out. Nobody in power wanted to fight Switzerland unless something drastic occurred to change the situation.
 
They didn't declare war on Finland in OTL. Why would they declare war on Switserland in TTL?
Technically Finland didn't join the Axis, it was a cobelligerent with Germany. A direct German puppet would likely declare war on the WAllies, if not the other way around.
 
They didn't declare war on Finland in OTL. Why would they declare war on Switserland in TTL?
You wrote:
Switzerland must allow its government to be reorganized to the satisfaction of the Axis or face invasion. The Swiss, for whatever reason, lose their nerve and give in. A rump puppet Switzerland is created after Germany and Italy take what they want.
So I assumed Switserland was invaded (even if they didn't resist) and parts of it taken over by Germany and Italy and for the remains there was a puppet goverenment installed.
 
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