"If They Want It They Can Have It": Ulster's Tragedy.

[BELFAST]

I can't answer for how the Great British public of the period or the Powers That Be in Westminster might react. I'll leave that to others more qualified than myself.

I can answer for what the British troops of the period thought.

They'd gone in to protect the Catholic minority; pretty much right from the start, the Catholic minority reacted as though it was an invading army, for all that the troops were protecting them. (It was commonplace for troops to insert themselves between Unionist rowdies and Nationalist protectees, and for bricks and bottles filled with urine to be thrown at the troops from the Nationalist side. Troops quickly learned to face in both directions). The Unionist troublemakers disliked the presence of the troops because this stopped them driving out the Nationalists.

Very quickly, the troops found themselves basically keeping Orange and Green maniacs apart from each other, and being vilified for it from both Orange and Green communities. The average soldier would have quite cheerfully left the province to its own devices. It was, as we saw it, an unpleasant little hell-hole with no redeeming features, where the biggest industry was sitting around collecting the dole and demonising the other side.

Thanks for your input.
It does sound like a thankless job.
Always useful to see events from the soldier perspective.
The economy of Northern Ireland does seem to have become a cargo cult with both sides look for handouts and thinking the world owes them a living.
This is how a former Irish soldier and current serving American soldier saw the events.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I can't answer for how the Great British public of the period or the Powers That Be in Westminster might react. I'll leave that to others more qualified than myself.

I can answer for what the British troops of the period thought.

They'd gone in to protect the Cathol minority; pretty much right from the start, the Catholic minority reacted as though it was an invading army, for all that the troops were protecting them. (It was commonplace for troops to insert themselves between Unionist rowdies and Nationalist protectees, and for bricks and bottles filled with urine to be thrown at the troops from the Nationalist side. Troops quickly learned to face in both directions). The Unionist troublemakers disliked the presence of the troops because this stopped them driving out the Nationalists.

Very quickly, the troops found themselves basically keeping Orange and Green maniacs apart from each other, and being vilified for it from both Orange and Green communities. The average soldier would have quite cheerfully left the province to its own devices. It was, as we saw it, an unpleasant little hell-hole with no redeeming features, where the biggest industry was sitting around collecting the dole and demonising the other side.

Thanks for your input. And your service in a snakepit.

I wonder if part of the problems experienced by the British troops was that basically both sides resented their presence. The "Loyalists" among the Protestant Community because they got in between them and their victims. And some of the Nationalists because they were a bleak reminder of the status of the Six Counties as a British possession. Gratitude at being saved from mobs and paramilitary thugs (B Specials and UDR) wore thin once the Army was tasked with searching for weapons. And with stopping further Civil Rights marches.

Probably both the Stormont hard liners and the Provos wanted to stir up tensions between the Army and the Nationalist Community for their own ends. Maybe if Direct Rule had been imposed in 1969 rather than 1972 the Army wouldn't have been misused by Stormont?

Edited for typo

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

One of the many sad (or stupid) things from IOTL Ulster mess is the relations between the British Army and the Irish Nationalists: up until July 1970 the relations between them were not too bad. Then, we have the Natioanlist anger that that followed the destruction of the roadblocks and barricades built in Free Derry (what did they thought? that No.10 would let them have it for ever and ever?) and that repeated itself after the raid of January 1970 in Lower Falls Road. Well, having the RUC made up mostly by Unionists (and a good lot of B Specials) did not help either. And add to the proverbial broil the IRA and the Sinn Fein schisms. And Callagham wondering what to do to keep the Unionists at bay while not angering the Catholics and the other way around.

Even South Vietnam under Diem sounds like a more stable place that North Ireland in the 1960s-1970s.

 

[CalBear]

Thanks for your input. And your service in a snakepit.

I wonder if part of the problems experienced by the British troops was that basically both sides resented their presence. The "Loyalists" among the Protestant Community because they got in between them and their victims. And some of the Nationalists because they were a bleak reminder of the status of the Six Counties as a British possession. Gratitude at being saved from mobs and paramilitary thugs (B Specials and UDR) wore thin once the Army was tasked with searching for weapons. And with stopping further Civil Rights marches.

Probably both the Stormont hard liners and the Provos wanted to stir up tensions between the Army and the Nationalist Community for their own ends. Maybe if Direct Rule had been imposed in 1969 rather than 1972 the Army wouldn't have been misused by Stormont?

Edited for typo

Peacekeeping is probably the most difficult task troops can be assigned to conduct. Pretty much no matter what you do one of the groups will thing you are showing favoritism to the other (with both thinking the worst about every possible action). It really isn't a military operation, but you have to use military personnel and employ them in roles that tend to be very much NOT what they were trained to do.

There are some countries where at least some troops receive specific training to act as peacekeepers (ironically this group includes the Repubic, which is extremely active in Blue Beret operations), but in the early 1970s the British Army's main focus was on the intra-German border and keeping the Red Army from getting through the Fulda Gap.

 

[David Flin]

Thanks for your input. And your service in a snakepit.

I wonder if part of the problems experienced by the British troops was that basically both sides resented their presence.

Absolutely. It wouldn't have been quite so dispiriting if it had just been the maniacs of both colours who resented our presence. By and large, the communities also resented our presence.

From our point of view, we'd protect them from the maniacs of the other side, and they'd still spit at us even while we were doing so.

To take a very specific and individual example, my troop had to clear up the mess when a Loyalist maniac exploded a bomb without warning in a Mothercare shop. A 3 year old child became a smear on the wall as a result of this bomb, which was no fun to deal with.

We offered our condolences to the Nationalists in the vicinity, which were, on our side, heart felt. It was of no use. They blamed us for stopping them from retaliating. The local Catholic priest told us that we would burn in Hell. Apparently we were more evil than the person who planted the bomb.

It became tiresome after a while.

And when we returned to England (in my Troop, it happened to be that there were no Scots or Welsh), why, we got vilified by the Left for being mean to the Nice and Heroic IRA, and we got vilified by the Right for letting violence happen.

Then there was an economic crisis, and we had a pay cut imposed on us.

Happy Days.

 

[BELFAST]

Absolutely. It wouldn't have been quite so dispiriting if it had just been the maniacs of both colours who resented our presence. By and large, the communities also resented our presence.

From our point of view, we'd protect them from the maniacs of the other side, and they'd still spit at us even while we were doing so.

To take a very specific and individual example, my troop had to clear up the mess when a Loyalist maniac exploded a bomb without warning in a Mothercare shop. A 3 year old child became a smear on the wall as a result of this bomb, which was no fun to deal with.

We offered our condolences to the Nationalists in the vicinity, which were, on our side, heart felt. It was of no use. They blamed us for stopping them from retaliating. The local Catholic priest told us that we would burn in Hell. Apparently we were more evil than the person who planted the bomb.

It became tiresome after a while.

And when we returned to England (in my Troop, it happened to be that there were no Scots or Welsh), why, we got vilified by the Left for being mean to the Nice and Heroic IRA, and we got vilified by the Right for letting violence happen.

Then there was an economic crisis, and we had a pay cut imposed on us.

Happy Days.

A classic example of no good deed goes unpunished.
Which was more unpleasant for the soldier Northern Ireland or Afghanistan?

 

[David Flin]

There are some countries where at least some troops receive specific training to act as peacekeepers (ironically this group includes the Repubic, which is extremely active in Blue Beret operations), but in the early 1970s the British Army's main focus was on the intra-German border and keeping the Red Army from getting through the Fulda Gap.

I would note that in 1973 (over bloody Christmas), the Royal Marines started training specifically to deal with such peacekeeping operations. They even got assorted amputees in to help with the simulation of bomb casualties. Remove the prosthetics, apply liberal amounts of blood, and you have realistic looking casualties. Get a few actors to throw stones at you while dealing with the casualties, and the training began to resemble what was faced.

 

[David Flin]

A classic example of no good deed goes unpunished.
Which was more unpleasant for the soldier Northern Ireland or Afghanistan?

I never did Afghanistan, so can't comment. My son in law did Afghanistan, but the GFA was in place before he got to do NI, so he can't comment either.

For me, with what I experienced, NI came number 3 on the unpleasantness stakes. Vying for the top spot are Beirut 1976 and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) 1971. I was essentially an observer at these two, but both were far, far worse than NI.

 

[CalBear]

I would note that in 1973 (over bloody Christmas), the Royal Marines started training specifically to deal with such peacekeeping operations. They even got assorted amputees in to help with the simulation of bomb casualties. Remove the prosthetics, apply liberal amounts of blood, and you have realistic looking casualties. Get a few actors to throw stones at you while dealing with the casualties, and the training began to resemble what was faced.

How hard were they allowed to chuck the rocks?

I ask because that seems to be sort of "character building" exercise some really Gung-Ho senior brass would think of.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Peacekeeping is probably the most difficult task troops can be assigned to conduct. Pretty much no matter what you do one of the groups will thing you are showing favoritism to the other (with both thinking the worst about every possible action). It really isn't a military operation, but you have to use military personnel and employ them in roles that tend to be very much NOT what they were trained to do.

There are some countries where at least some troops receive specific training to act as peacekeepers (ironically this group includes the Repubic, which is extremely active in Blue Beret operations), but in the early 1970s the British Army's main focus was on the intra-German border and keeping the Red Army from getting through the Fulda Gap.

All good points.*

Allied was that while the focus for operational planning and unit training was WW3 on the North German Plain, the recent combat experience for soldiers and officers was mostly in the colonial conflicts from Kenya, Malaya, Borneo and Aden. Probably more I've forgotten or never even heard of.

And the tactics the Army deployed there for counter insurgency operations were rather more brutal than are conducive to winning hearts and minds. But too deeply embedded in the senior officers "doctrine" to be avoided. Especially when the Civil Power they reported to is demanding Action This Day to seize weapons and alleged terrorists.

Basically the junior officers and enlisted personnel were given a role they weren't trained for and ordered to do things that inflamed rather than dampened hostility. To them and the other community.

* BAOR was a bit north of the Fulda Gap but that's a nit pick. 😳

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

I can't answer for how the Great British public of the period or the Powers That Be in Westminster might react. I'll leave that to others more qualified than myself.

I can answer for what the British troops of the period thought.

They'd gone in to protect the Catholic minority; pretty much right from the start, the Catholic minority reacted as though it was an invading army, for all that the troops were protecting them. (It was commonplace for troops to insert themselves between Unionist rowdies and Nationalist protectees, and for bricks and bottles filled with urine to be thrown at the troops from the Nationalist side. Troops quickly learned to face in both directions). The Unionist troublemakers disliked the presence of the troops because this stopped them driving out the Nationalists.

Very quickly, the troops found themselves basically keeping Orange and Green maniacs apart from each other, and being vilified for it from both Orange and Green communities. The average soldier would have quite cheerfully left the province to its own devices. It was, as we saw it, an unpleasant little hell-hole with no redeeming features, where the biggest industry was sitting around collecting the dole and demonising the other side.

I was a teenager and young man in England during this period.
As I already had an interest in history my views were probably different to most of those around me.
As has been said, Ireland is complicated, and its history is very complicated.
Easy solutions don't exist.

For most of those around me the attitude, based on nightly news broadcasts, is best described as:
The "loyalists" who want to stay part of the UK plainly aren't loyal.
The "nationalists" dont want to be part of the UK.
Everyone is shooting at the troops we sent to help them.
So get the troops and everyone else back, pull up the drawbridge, let them get on with it.

 

[nezza]

"I say this to the peoples of Ulster, whether you are Protestant or catholic, whether you have allegiance to the United Kingdom or the Irish Republic, we are all God's children and God doesn't wish his children to suffer. Come home, come out of hiding and let us join together to build a new Ulster"

(Ian Paisley)

 

[BELFAST]

"I say this to the peoples of Ulster, whether you are Protestant or catholic, whether you have allegiance to the United Kingdom or the Irish Republic, we are all God's children and God doesn't wish his children to suffer. Come home, come out of hiding and let us join together to build a new Ulster"

(Ian Paisley)

Nice.
It does sound like paraphrasing the proclamation of the easter rebellion 1916 or stealing some line from it.

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien Government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_Irish_Republic

It would be better if he got to say never, never, never at some point
No surrender is a must too.
Ian Paisley doing little boo peep looking for his lost sheep.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

I can't believe I'm rooting for Ian F*****g Paisley

 

[BELFAST]

I can't believe I'm rooting for Ian F*****g Paisley

The others have lost their minds.
It is like the German who saved the Jews in Denmark.

Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rescue of the Danish Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[iani]

I was surprised Paisley was never assasssinated OTL, other than that his rabid ravings were an excellent advert for whatever he was against (nearly everything sane & reasonable.)

 

[sparky42]

Peacekeeping is probably the most difficult task troops can be assigned to conduct. Pretty much no matter what you do one of the groups will thing you are showing favoritism to the other (with both thinking the worst about every possible action). It really isn't a military operation, but you have to use military personnel and employ them in roles that tend to be very much NOT what they were trained to do.

There are some countries where at least some troops receive specific training to act as peacekeepers (ironically this group includes the Repubic, which is extremely active in Blue Beret operations), but in the early 1970s the British Army's main focus was on the intra-German border and keeping the Red Army from getting through the Fulda Gap.

For the Republic it’s not just “some troops” for the Army you don’t don’t get a UN deployment you might as well buy yourself out, your career is going nowhere. But yeah for the British military it’s totally understandable that ATCP peacekeeping wasn’t something high on their list for training purposes, that being said even the DF wasn’t exactly restricting itself in UNFIL operations either against all the civil war sides or the IDF at times.

 

[BELFAST]

I was surprised Paisley was never assasssinated OTL, other than that his rabid ravings were an excellent advert for whatever he was against (nearly everything sane & reasonable.)

The INLA tried with an armour piece round at this bulletproof car. They missed.

 

[sparky42]

The INLA tried with an armour piece round at this bulletproof car. They missed.

It’s the INLA, surprised they didn’t shoot one of their own in the attempt...Maybe they should have got that Ra lad that hit one of the Brave class with the Boys rifle in Waterford...

 

[David Flin]

Basically the junior officers and enlisted personnel were given a role they weren't trained for and ordered to do things that inflamed rather than dampened hostility. To them and the other community.

As someone who was one of the enlisted personnel you are referencing, I have to say that you are not strictly correct.

Our ROE were incredibly tight. Not to fire until after we had come under fire for effect, and not to fire unless we had a clear and identified target that wasn't back stopped by IBs.

We had instructions not to point weapons at anything that wasn't a clear and identified target, and quite a few other restrictions, all with the specific intent of not inflaming the situation.

Waste of time, of course. The situation was inflamed regardless of what we might do. The Orange Maniacs didn't want us there, and they ran their own communities and made sure these were agin us. The Green Maniacs likewise.

This culminated in the Peace Marches of1976, when the ordinary people, led by three courageous people, said enough, and marched to stop the insanity. Of course, the Orange and Green Maniacs threatened the leaders, and tried to kill them on several occasions. They failed. The Marches never achieved peace, but they did ensure that the ordinary people became passive in the situation, rather than actively supporting the maniacs from their own side.

And, from 1973 onwards, we were trained. I should know. I took part in the training.