I was watching the latest episode of WW2 In Real Time on YouTube and I thought about the Japanese push into Burma and it made me wonder if the German's had, instead of invading Russia, had invaded the Middle East and if Japan had pushed more into the Indian Ocean. Could they have united in India? Could this have worked and prolonged the war? How could the German's have invaded the Middle East without arousing Russia?
Germany and Japan Unite!
- Thread starter Benhur88
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It would not have logistically been possible for the Germans to push into the Middle East.
The Japanese were not interested in a collaborative Indian Ocean strategy until the Germans have taken Suez.
Even if the Germans with a lot of JU52s and a lot of Siebel ferries and MFPs managed to keep an extra Panzer Division in supply on North Africa, took Alexandria, then under pressure from Germany without the British fleet in the eastern med the Turks agreed to transit of German supplies and soldiers.
The logistics across Iran would get hard, no railways, rugged frontier. It would all have to be built, would take years.
Japan couldn't do it OTL.
The British had behaved at least we'll enough as colonial masters the Indians could trust they could get independence some day, so no big revolts would happen.
Regardless it's still better than Barbarossa.
The logistics across Iran would get hard, no railways, rugged frontier. It would all have to be built, would take years.
Japan couldn't do it OTL.
The British had behaved at least we'll enough as colonial masters the Indians could trust they could get independence some day, so no big revolts would happen.
Regardless it's still better than Barbarossa.
Long term, I think it would be much better than Barbarossa. The oil fields in the ME weren't as well developed as they are today, but they could still dig for more and if the Russians ever did try to invade Germany, the Germans could bomb the Caucasian oil fields from Iraq and Syria.
Considering how close the Germans came to taking Egypt and how Rommel gave the Wallies such a run for their money with the few resources he had; taking Malta and Crete would give the Germans direct access to supplying their North African front in order to build up for a heavy assault on Egypt. The supply issues people bring up often don't include the fact the Wallies were cutting into the Axis merchant Marine capacity
The Germans were nowhere close to taking Egypt. That wouldn't increase Italian or German shipping capacity nor oil reserves for naval shipping.
Garrison
Donor
Yes, but with the advantage of access to a myriad of records we now understand how those things happened. We also understand just how fragile the German economy was and the limits of their logistics
For Germany to get oil out of the Middle East will require a huge investment of resources they can't afford. You are also falling into the trap of assuming oil was the limiting factor on the German war machine. Steel, coal, food and manpower were at least as important if not more so. None of those things were to be found in the Middle East in the quantities Germany needed.
Garrison
Donor
Again you seem to be going off a very out of date view of the North African campaign. Rommel constantly overpromised and overextended his forces, ignoring the limited nature of the logistics chain supplying him.
I think it's an interesting question.
What If there was more collaboration between the two countries, if Japan had shared the date pearl harbour was going to happen and the subsequent attack on British far east possessions could the Germans plan their attacka in North Africa to seriously pressurise and undermine UK logistics?
What If there was more collaboration between the two countries, if Japan had shared the date pearl harbour was going to happen and the subsequent attack on British far east possessions could the Germans plan their attacka in North Africa to seriously pressurise and undermine UK logistics?
No he didn't. And no, taking Malta and Crete would not give the Germans direct access to their North African front. There's a severe lack of good ports in between Benghazi and Alexandria.
Look, I've done analysis of the Axis supply situation in North Africa before. The problem is not the Allies sinking shipping, though that certainly didn't help. The problem is the lack of port capacity, both overall and close enough to the front to not make the ground-based supply requirements balloon with all the trucks needed to carry supplies.
The Germans did a lot of things that people thought were tactically impossible. Logistics is an entirely separate ballgame.
And to go back to your original question: Japan also can't strike into India, either. The Indo-Burmese border is a hell of jungle-choked mountains with no roads. And they don't have the sealift and fleet sustainability to take Ceylon, let alone anything on the Indian mainland.
What also didn't help is that literally everything (except oxygen) had to be transported with trucks from the harbors to the front.
Edit: what I mean is that almost everywhere in the world you can get some of the things you need from closeby, like food, water or grass to feed your horses. Not in NA, everything needs to be brought to where you want it.
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Like allow a cabal of genocidal loons take over one of the most urbane and cultured nations on the Planet.
As the miniseries said:
"This is the birthplace of Brahms and Beethoven, that can't be happening!"
"Unfortunately none of them are in office."
Like being a war with two of the three largest exonomies on the Plant at the same time, and then declaring an entirely optional war am the LARGEST economy on the Plant (which had as much war making potential as the next three economies combined, and population approaching twice that of "Inner Germany", and was located where it could produce material without the slightest danger of enemy action) .
Like throwing away ~200,000 unrecoverable losses (KIA/MIA/PoW), almost 900 single engine fighters, 120 twin engine fighters, 700+ bombers, 100+ Stuka, 300+ Ju-52 WHILE preparing for and engaging in Operation Barbarossa.
The Reich did indeed do a lot of things the world thought impossible. Thing is, the world thought that because, well, they were impossible, ill-advised under ideal circumstances, and in general monumentally stupid. As a result Germany would up sub-divided for 45 years, had pretty much every reasonably large population center bombed, burned and/or reduced to rubble by artillery fire, permanently lost ALL of East Prussia, and a huge portion of Eastern Germany, suffered mind-numbing casualties, with the population, especially, but not exclusively, in the Eastern Zone treated, well, better than the SS had treated the Slavic populations of the East, but subjected to incredible depredation and humiliations.
Much of the time, not always by any means, but quite often, when "they" say something in impossible, it it worth listening.
Holocaust
From what, for my money, was the true Golden Age of Network Television. There were miniseries in the late 70s that are the equal of anything that was in theaters at the time, or is on HBO/Netflix/Prime today.
Holocaust (miniseries) - Wikipedia
I haven't seen it, but I know of it.Holocaust
From what, for my money, was the true Golden Age of Network Television. There were miniseries in the late 70s that are the equal of anything that was in theaters at the time, or is on HBO/Netflix/Prime today.
Holocaust (miniseries) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Was it good? I've always heard it was controversial.
I haven't seen it either, but I heard my mom once remark that it gave my dad nightmares after he'd seen it. So it's probably realistic.