Mackensen class battlecruisers in WW1

[McPherson]

I don't have any info for WWI subs either, but German WW2 subs used St 42 or St 52, where manganese is the major alloying element. You're off by an order of magnitude, though - your US example would come out to 3, 4 and 2.5 tonnes respectively per boat.

Yeah. I think I misplaced a decimal there... Thanks. So correct the math one point to the left.

 

[I want to learn]

Say, just to make it simple, that all the Royal Navy battlecruisers are sunk (strikingly unlikely, but for the sake of the discussion, we can look at it).

If we’re looking at Jutland re-do where the QEs are fleeing from the entire German fleet and the British battlecruisers are not a factor, I think it’s pretty clear what would have happened. The German battlecruisers would have used superior speed to get ahead of the 5th battle squadron, crossing the T of the isolated British squadron and negating their firepower advantage. If the 5th battle squadron wants to contest the Scounting Force’s firepower advantage they have to turn broadside and/or conduct other maneuvers which loose them ground to the pursuing HSF.

This did NOT happen at Jutland because Beatty retained a functional (though diminished) battlecruiser squadron strong enough to thwart any ideas Hipper’s scouting force might have had about getting ahead. This was also crucial because it prevented Hipper from *scouting*. Beatty’s pre-battle errors with regard to gunnery, ammunition, and making sure his subordinates were on the same page nearly led to catastrophe, but his mission was to scout and do it better than the enemy, and he did that well with enough to set Jellicoe up for the dream scenario of the Grand Fleet crossing the HSF’s T.

Again, I don’t think the Royal Navy would use the QEs as battlecruisers, roughly for the theoretical reasons I describe above, and also because in the actual events of Jutland they had come close to destruction. Even besides a near-golden BB on Malaya, didn’t Warspite become unmaneuverable right as the Grand Fleet showed up?

 

[CV12Hornet]

If we’re looking at Jutland re-do where the QEs are fleeing from the entire German fleet and the British battlecruisers are not a factor, I think it’s pretty clear what would have happened. The German battlecruisers would have used superior speed to get ahead of the 5th battle squadron, crossing the T of the isolated British squadron and negating their firepower advantage. If the 5th battle squadron wants to contest the Scounting Force’s firepower advantage they have to turn broadside and/or conduct other maneuvers which loose them ground to the pursuing HSF.

This did NOT happen at Jutland because Beatty retained a functional (though diminished) battlecruiser squadron strong enough to thwart any ideas Hipper’s scouting force might have had about getting ahead. This was also crucial because it prevented Hipper from *scouting*. Beatty’s pre-battle errors with regard to gunnery, ammunition, and making sure his subordinates were on the same page nearly led to catastrophe, but his mission was to scout and do it better than the enemy, and he did that well with enough to set Jellicoe up for the dream scenario of the Grand Fleet crossing the HSF’s T.

Okay, but how is this situation occurring, with the British battlecruisers a non-factor and the QEs detached and alone?

Regardless, "superior speed" is not going to keep the German battlecruisers out of the way of British guns. If we're doing a Jutland redux, then the British are going to turn while parallel to the Germans, with the Germans turning shortly after the British and continuing a parallel course to catch up. A parallel course means that as the Germans pull ahead they're going to come under fire from the British. Worse, the Germans don't have that much of a speed advantage over the QEs, due to them being tied to the 25-knot Von der Tann. Trying to catch up to ships you only have a knot of speed advantage over, enough to overtake them and cross their T, is going to take hours, hours the Germans don't have when the QEs are drawing them towards the Grand Fleet - and as I mentioned before wrt coal versus oil-firing, there's a good chance the Germans are going to have slow down long before they overtake the Brits enough to go for the T-cross.

 

[McPherson]

Okay, but how is this situation occurring, with the British battlecruisers a non-factor and the QEs detached and alone?

Regardless, "superior speed" is not going to keep the German battlecruisers out of the way of British guns. If we're doing a Jutland redux, then the British are going to turn while parallel to the Germans, with the Germans turning shortly after the British and continuing a parallel course to catch up. A parallel course means that as the Germans pull ahead they're going to come under fire from the British. Worse, the Germans don't have that much of a speed advantage over the QEs, due to them being tied to the 25-knot Von der Tann. Trying to catch up to ships you only have a knot of speed advantage over, enough to overtake them and cross their T, is going to take hours, hours the Germans don't have when the QEs are drawing them towards the Grand Fleet - and as I mentioned before wrt coal versus oil-firing, there's a good chance the Germans are going to have slow down long before they overtake the Brits enough to go for the T-cross.

700+ m/s shell throw scalars means 5-10 minutes of gunfire effects depending on the slow line merges. So... Blub, Blub, Blub. The QE's will be enjoying themselves during the shoot-ex... immensely.

 

[CalBear]

If we’re looking at Jutland re-do where the QEs are fleeing from the entire German fleet and the British battlecruisers are not a factor, I think it’s pretty clear what would have happened. The German battlecruisers would have used superior speed to get ahead of the 5th battle squadron, crossing the T of the isolated British squadron and negating their firepower advantage. If the 5th battle squadron wants to contest the Scounting Force’s firepower advantage they have to turn broadside and/or conduct other maneuvers which loose them ground to the pursuing HSF.

This did NOT happen at Jutland because Beatty retained a functional (though diminished) battlecruiser squadron strong enough to thwart any ideas Hipper’s scouting force might have had about getting ahead. This was also crucial because it prevented Hipper from *scouting*. Beatty’s pre-battle errors with regard to gunnery, ammunition, and making sure his subordinates were on the same page nearly led to catastrophe, but his mission was to scout and do it better than the enemy, and he did that well with enough to set Jellicoe up for the dream scenario of the Grand Fleet crossing the HSF’s T.

Again, I don’t think the Royal Navy would use the QEs as battlecruisers, roughly for the theoretical reasons I describe above, and also because in the actual events of Jutland they had come close to destruction. Even besides a near-golden BB on Malaya, didn’t Warspite become unmaneuverable right as the Grand Fleet showed up?

There wouldn't have BEEN any HSF battlecruisers to get ahead of 5th Squadron. They would have all wound up like Von der Tann, or worse. That overtake would be at a walking pace with the British 15" guns having at least two hours (assuming a four knot speed advantage, which didn't really apply at Jutland) to finish what they started as soon as the first German BC reaches firing range.

The German BC were a far better design philosophy than the British insofar as they were at least a semi-balanced design opposed to Fisher's "kill what can't hurt us, outrun what can" foolishness, but they were still vastly underarmored trying to engage actual battleships. In a straight up BS vs BC fight, the HSF has the advantage. Against the 5th (or any other) Battle Squadron? Not a chance.

Reminds me of old cartoon:

"How did game go Timmy?"

"I was throwing a no-hitter until the big kids got out of school"

 

[Lawnchair Captain]

This did NOT happen at Jutland because Beatty retained a functional (though diminished) battlecruiser squadron strong enough to thwart any ideas Hipper’s scouting force might have had about getting ahead. This was also crucial because it prevented Hipper from *scouting*. Beatty’s pre-battle errors with regard to gunnery, ammunition, and making sure his subordinates were on the same page nearly led to catastrophe, but his mission was to scout and do it better than the enemy, and he did that well with enough to set Jellicoe up for the dream scenario of the Grand Fleet crossing the HSF’s T.

At Jutland Evan-Thomas' 5th Battle Squadron didn't have much problems in catching up with the German BC and showing them that Beatty's awful gunnery would not apply to the ships Jellicoe trained in Scapa Flow. Why would things be different now?

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

What happens if German Battle cruisers try to cross T of the 5th Battle squadron?

I suspect that 5BS simply angles away on interior lines while shooting several kinds of shit out of them. Leading the survivors and the HSF Battle fleet onto the main body of the Grand Fleet.

One, maybe two of the Queen Elizabeth's are lost, to be replaced by extra Hoods or a new design.

The HSF is turned into scrap a decade earlier.

 

[I want to learn]

Okay, but how is this situation occurring, with the British battlecruisers a non-factor and the QEs detached and alone?

I dunno, other people seem interested in discussing it as a scenario so it keeps getting brought up.

 

[I want to learn]

Worse, the Germans don't have that much of a speed advantage over the QEs, due to them being tied to the 25-knot Von der Tann.

I thought Von der Tan hit 28 knots under optimal conditions and was doing at least 26 at Jutland, maybe 27.

 

[I want to learn]

At Jutland Evan-Thomas' 5th Battle Squadron didn't have much problems in catching up with the German BC and showing them that Beatty's awful gunnery would not apply to the ships Jellicoe trained in Scapa Flow. Why would things be different now?

Because during the run to the South Hipper wasn’t directing his ships to accelerate to top speed. He was trying to maintain contact with the detached British squadrons as he made an orderly retreat towards the body of the HSF. A flanking maneuver (to minimize the effectiveness of British guns) would have called for different speeds.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I thought Von der Tan hit 28 knots under optimal conditions and was doing at least 26 at Jutland, maybe 27.

It could have been possible to do such speeds for a brief period before stokers collapse from exhaustion. Didn't Goeben exceed its design speed while running to Istanbul?

Whether Von der Tann could keep this up for the hours needed to swing away from the 5th BS and then back to cross its T is open to doubt.

Of course, with 2 or more Mackensen class available, it could be left behind? Or to head a second scouting group of mainly cruisers to support the main body of the HSF.

 

[I want to learn]

I suspect that 5BS simply angles away on interior lines while shooting several kinds of shit out of them. Leading the survivors and the HSF Battle fleet onto the main body of the Grand Fleet.

If the 5th battle squadron turns parallel to a German battlecruiser squadron crossing their T, they totally give up their relative speed advantage over the HSF, which was so slight IOTL that at least tenuous contact between the two was maintained for the entire run to the North. It seems pretty well understood at the time WW1 capital ship gunnery deteriorated when under fire by enemy capital ships. The 4 or 5 ships of the 5th battle squadron therefore could have picked a handful of German ships to fire on with decreased efficiency, while over a dozen German dreadnoughts are unmolested and firing medium range.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Because during the run to the South Hipper wasn’t directing his ships to accelerate to top speed. He was trying to maintain contact with the detached British squadrons as he made an orderly retreat towards the body of the HSF. A flanking maneuver (to minimize the effectiveness of British guns) would have called for different speeds.

Perhaps

But how far away from the QE class would the German Battle cruiser force have to stay to be out of range? How much extra distance will it have to cover to get in front of them, and how long will it take? And, in the North Sea, what risk of losing contact?

 

[Lawnchair Captain]

The German BC either lead the British BC and 5th Squadron to the HSF or fight them trying to cross their T something that as pointed before by other posters would take some time considering the not so big speed advantage they would have and the fact that the oil fired turbines of of QE battleships could keep their top speed for longer.

Using their greater speed to disengage will not be very useful. The British will push forward and find the HSF and then they will report and head back to the Grand Fleet. In this case sending information more often and more precise than Beatty did. Mission accomplished.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

If the 5th battle squadron turns parallel to a German battlecruiser squadron crossing their T, they totally give up their relative speed advantage over the HSF, which was so slight IOTL that at least tenuous contact between the two was maintained for the entire run to the North. It seems pretty well understood at the time WW1 capital ship gunnery deteriorated when under fire by enemy capital ships. The 4 or 5 ships of the 5th battle squadron therefore could have picked a handful of German ships to fire on with decreased efficiency, while over a dozen German dreadnoughts are unmolested and firing medium range.

Depends on the angles of approach and you seem to assume the HSF is in a good position to cut corners while chasing the 5th BS. Try working it out on paper and bear in mind visibility conditions.

And where the main body of the GF is or the British battle cruisers. It's very, very unlikely that only the 5th BS is at sea even if it seems to be isolated.

 

[CV12Hornet]

I thought Von der Tan hit 28 knots under optimal conditions and was doing at least 26 at Jutland, maybe 27.

Even under the most optimal conditions during her trials she only reached 27.4 knots, and that involved overloading her machinery to over double its designed output. I could believe her hitting 26 knots at Jutland, though I'd prefer to consult Gary Staff on that, but even a two-knot speed advantage still means it takes hours for the battlecruisers to get into position, hours they don't have and which the stokers can't sustain.

 

[I want to learn]

It could have been possible to do such speeds for a brief period before stokers collapse from exhaustion. Didn't Goeben exceed its design speed while running to Istanbul?

Whether Von der Tann could keep this up for the hours needed to swing away from the 5th BS and then back to cross its T is open to doubt.

Of course, with 2 or more Mackensen class available, it could be left behind? Or to head a second scouting group of mainly cruisers to support the main body of the HSF.

I don’t think Goeben clocked any over 24 knots at any point during that campaign. Engine problems and peacetime stoker complement were one limitation, plus I think 24 knots proved sufficient for the situations they found themselves in.

When you say Von Der Tann left behind, are you referring to her staying in port entirely? Or do you just mean the Mackensens and any battlecruisers fast enough to keep up that day race ahead and let the remainder maneuver independently? I’m not sure if any WW1 era navy had much of a tactical doctrine for allowing sub-units of a fleet or squadron to maneuver independently, although I understand Beatty was trying to make it happen when he was in charge of the Grand Fleet.

 

[I want to learn]

Even under the most optimal conditions during her trials she only reached 27.4 knots, and that involved overloading her machinery to over double its designed output. I could believe her hitting 26 knots at Jutland, though I'd prefer to consult Gary Staff on that, but even a two-knot speed advantage still means it takes hours for the battlecruisers to get into position, hours they don't have and which the stokers can't sustain.

How do those numbers compare to Moltke/Seydlitz/Derfflinger? I mean if Von Der Tann is really obviously a lead weight I can see tactics being modified but otherwise I thought she was as fast as any of Hippers ships at Jutland.

 

[CV12Hornet]

How do those numbers compare to Moltke/Seydlitz/Derfflinger? I mean if Von Der Tann is really obviously a lead weight I can see tactics being modified but otherwise I thought she was as fast as any of Hippers ships at Jutland.

Moltke was designed for 25.5 knots and reached 28.4 on trials, much like Von der Tann by heavily overloading her machinery.

Seydlitz was designed for 26.5 and achieved 28.13 on trials.

The Derfflingers were designed for 27 knots and achieved 28 on trials.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

But Mackensen was laid down in Jan 1915. The last German battlecruiser to be completed before the war was Seydlitz - in the 27 months from Feb 1911 to May 1913. If Mackensen is constructed in the same amount of time, she’s commissioned in April 1917. The Royal Navy for its part commissioned the battlecruisers it had laid down in January 1915 by September 1916. I think 1917 is perfectly doable if that’s what been priorized.

The British spammed out ships like they were the biggest ship building nation on the planet or something....and built them faster than anyone else

Because the British could do it with their superior shipbuilding infrastructure and experience does not means that the Germans can!

Seydlitz was built using existing guns etc, the Mackensens guns and turrets were never built (although a number of barrels existed in 1922) or made and she was much larger than Seydlitz with more of everything.