An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Since Rhomania has colonies in Southeast Asia I wonder what their relations will be like with China, Korea, and Japan.
They probably won't have friendly relations with Zeng China, only seeing them as a potential trading market at best and a lost cause at worst due to extreme isolationism, as they hate everything not from the Middle Kingdom. If Rhomania does not have a treaty port like Canton, then they're effectively locked out of trade by the xenophobic power and their colonies would face the same situation.

Japan is friendly towards any Orthodox colony or state in Asia or Europe since the Shimazus are Orthodox iirc.

If Korea broke off the Chinese yoke after the Reverse Imjin War, then it's possible that they will trade with Japan and the rest of the Orthodox world since it's profitable and they don't need to listen to the Zeng Emperor.
 
They probably won't have friendly relations with Zeng China, only seeing them as a potential trading market at best and a lost cause at worst due to extreme isolationism, as they hate everything not from the Middle Kingdom. If Rhomania does not have a treaty port like Canton, then they're effectively locked out of trade by the xenophobic power and their colonies would face the same situation.

Japan is friendly towards any Orthodox colony or state in Asia or Europe since the Shimazus are Orthodox iirc.

If Korea broke off the Chinese yoke after the Reverse Imjin War, then it's possible that they will trade with Japan and the rest of the Orthodox world since it's profitable and they don't need to listen to the Zeng Emperor.
What will make China trade with Rhomania?
 
What will make China trade with Rhomania?
Nothing. The Chinese have absolutely no interest in dealing with any barbarian after being ruled by both the Yuan and the Tieh dynasty, otherwise they wouldn't have gone to such drastic measures in invading Korea to get them as a tributary or worked towards a deal with the Romans in opening a treaty port like the Canton system where they would've gotten massive profits. They should be self sufficient as an economy thanks to their immense agricultural wealth, large population, and huge amounts of natural resources, so they have very little reason in opening up to the world without industrialization.

However, a more interesting question to ask is.....what will make Rhomania trade with China?
The Romans developing/discovering something the Chinese want. Wasn't til the British discovered the Chinese "wanted" opium til the trade imbalance was closed.
I generally think that what prevents the Romans from trying to open up trade with China in an aggressive fashion is not just a economic issue but an ideological one. They respect China as one of the greatest civilizations in the world thanks to civilization-ism. Unlike Britain, they aren't going to do something as underhanded unless they shift the totem pole to a position lower than their own.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
Since Rhomania has colonies in Southeast Asia I wonder what their relations will be like with China, Korea, and Japan.
Well so far they have good relations with Japan, which is now an Orthodox nation, decent relations with Korea, and poor relations with China, they just finished defending Korea from China.

They also have a pretty good relationship with Cham, southern Vietnam and Cambodia, but poor relations with the Vietnamese and Thai.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
Nothing. The Chinese have absolutely no interest in dealing with any barbarian after being ruled by both the Yuan and the Tieh dynasty, otherwise they wouldn't have gone to such drastic measures in invading Korea to get them as a tributary or worked towards a deal with the Romans in opening a treaty port like the Canton system where they would've gotten massive profits. They should be self sufficient as an economy thanks to their immense agricultural wealth, large population, and huge amounts of natural resources, so they have very little reason in opening up to the world without industrialization.

However, a more interesting question to ask is.....what will make Rhomania trade with China?

I generally think that what prevents the Romans from trying to open up trade with China in an aggressive fashion is not just a economic issue but an ideological one. They respect China as one of the greatest civilizations in the world thanks to civilization-ism. Unlike Britain, they aren't going to do something as underhanded unless they shift the totem pole to a position lower than their own.
Well the West, even Rhomania and Russia, want high quality silk, tea, and porcelain not to mention other kinds of Chinese wares though domestic production along with Japanese and Korean might help Rhomania not trade as heavily. As for what China would want, silver, as much silver as can be dug out of South America as humanly possible, and not much else. Remember the whole world is in a bit of a bullion crisis and China isn't immune. Actually a bit more susceptible since their currency relies on vast quantities of silver.
 
Well the West, even Rhomania and Russia, want high quality silk, tea, and porcelain not to mention other kinds of Chinese wares though domestic production along with Japanese and Korean might help Rhomania not trade as heavily. As for what China would want, silver, as much silver as can be dug out of South America as humanly possible, and not much else. Remember the whole world is in a bit of a bullion crisis and China isn't immune. Actually a bit more susceptible since their currency relies on vast quantities of silver.
I reread the post about Zeng China and it does seems that they do trade actively with the Europeans, even if they're not very enthusiastic about trading with foreigners.
That's definitely a huge mistake on my part and it kinda relieves me that Europe or the rest of the Orthodox world does not need to batter down the gates of the Imperial palace in Luoyang to just simply trade. I assumed that they were so xenophobic that they slammed China shut like Ming or Joseon on steroids.
Another purpose is to keep all those pesky barbarians a little farther away. While not absolute, the restoration of China to full nativist control after so many years of turmoil and division and foreign subjugation has led to an upsurge in xenophobia. The Yuan in both iterations plus the Tieh all used many foreigners in their administration due to distrust of the Han Chinese which has bred much resentment. The Zeng are quite willing to sell porcelain to the barbarians for their silver, but would much like it if those barbarians would, for once, stay out of the Heavenly Kingdom.
Still, that does leave a cold reception between most Asian Orthodox countries like Japan or Heraklia with China and I don't think that will change as long as Zeng China remains extremely xenophobic towards outsiders.
 
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I would argue in favour of Adrianople. I dug around through some of my older essays so enjoy this paragraph from my 4th year at the University of Toronto. The course was 'Islamic Cities' taught by Dr. Edward Keall of the Royal Ontario Museum. I got an A so hopefully it's decent enough to bring up to argue in favour of Adrianople. :p

Edirne was the centre of the Early Ottoman Empire and even after the capital shifted to Constantinople it was still vital as a military installation, administrative centre, trade route, and royal vacation home. In constructions and monuments “Edirne… retained its classical features until the second half of the nineteenth century.”[1] A multitude of mosques and palaces were built within its boundaries for royal visitation and residence. The Old Palace constructed in 1365 continued to be used after Constantinople became the capital; as when Suleiman the Magnificent planned his Hungarian Campaign within the palace walls.[2] The New Imperial Palace was built in 1450 for royal recreation and was continuously expanded by successive Sultans until by “the end of the 17th century it contained 18 pavilions, 8 mesd̲j̲ids, 17 large gates, 14 baths and 5 courts. Some six to ten thousand people lived within the confines of the palace.”[3] Suleiman the Magnificent traveled to the city for recreation and his successor Selim II built the city’s famous landmark, the Sulimiye Mosque, between 1569 and 1575. The Mosque is typical of Ottoman architecture in that it is modelled after the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul; with one large dome supported by four half-domes accompanied by four minarets at its corners. However, when the Tulip period ended so too did the New Imperial Palace’s roll as a vacation home for the Sultan.[4] This is partially explained by a catastrophic fire in 1745 which saw some 60% of the city burned to the ground. It was followed only a scant six years later by an earthquake in 1751 which marked permanent full transition of the Ottoman court to its palaces in Istanbul.[5]

[1] Aptullah Kuran, “A Spatial Study of Three Ottoman Capitals: Bursa, Edirne, and Istanbul,” Muqamas 13 (1996): 118.
[2] M. Tayyib Gökbilgin, “Edirne,” Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition (2012): 684 Column 2.
[3] Ibid.
[4] Aptullah, “A Spatial Study,” 120.
[5] Gökbilgin, “Edirne,” 684 Column 1.
Nice and all, but it misses my point completely. Rhomania is a Balkan power expanding eastwards, the Ottomans were an Anatolian power expanding westward. Yes, the Ottomans succeeded in conquering and keeping Mesopotamia from the Persians, but the Ottomans had advantages the Romans do not.
Primarily, however, Ottoman efforts (especially after the conquest of Egypt) were directed westward, with Mehmed the Conqueror raiding Apulia and successive sultans after him pushing further north and west, up the Balkans till the gates of Vienna. Adrianople was good for them because it was strategically located, between Constantinople and the Danube and Macedonia and the Black Sea, all pointing northwest from Constantinople, towards Europe.

Rhomania has been there and done that and is absolutely not interested in having another go at the moment, so a residence at Nicomedia or Nicaea (close to both Constantinople and interior Anatolia), or even Antioch or the ruins of Theodosiopolis makes more sense from that angle, as Rhomania will probably be invested in Mesopotamia for a long time, and the Far East for even longer.

Of course, we now have WORD OF GOD confirming that this aversion to Constantinople is very much a temporary and personal thing, but I can just imagine Athena being so exasperated by Constantinopolitan officials that she threatens to move to Chalcedon or Nicomedia.
 
Nothing. The Chinese have absolutely no interest in dealing with any barbarian after being ruled by both the Yuan and the Tieh dynasty, otherwise they wouldn't have gone to such drastic measures in invading Korea to get them as a tributary or worked towards a deal with the Romans in opening a treaty port like the Canton system where they would've gotten massive profits. They should be self sufficient as an economy thanks to their immense agricultural wealth, large population, and huge amounts of natural resources, so they have very little reason in opening up to the world without industrialization.

However, a more interesting question to ask is.....what will make Rhomania trade with China?

I generally think that what prevents the Romans from trying to open up trade with China in an aggressive fashion is not just a economic issue but an ideological one. They respect China as one of the greatest civilizations in the world thanks to civilization-ism. Unlike Britain, they aren't going to do something as underhanded unless they shift the totem pole to a position lower than their own.

Well the West, even Rhomania and Russia, want high quality silk, tea, and porcelain not to mention other kinds of Chinese wares though domestic production along with Japanese and Korean might help Rhomania not trade as heavily. As for what China would want, silver, as much silver as can be dug out of South America as humanly possible, and not much else. Remember the whole world is in a bit of a bullion crisis and China isn't immune. Actually a bit more susceptible since their currency relies on vast quantities of silver.

The Romans produce silk also. Manufacturing centered Romans compared to agriculture based OTL Ottomans. China will outproduce the Romans due to size difference.

Other wares the Roman have been trading to China since ancient times, glasswares. If i recall correctly, OTL Byzantine coins are viewed by the Chinese as exotic jewelry. It might not be different TTL.

South American Silver passes thru Roman colony of Herakleans. Although the Silver mines are Mexican, the Romans are the middleman.
 
East-1641 part 1: Preparations
East-1641 part 1: Preparations

It began at Troy. According to Herodotus the Persians said that the quarrel between the Hellenic and Persian races began when, for the sake of a woman, the Hellenes sent forth a great armament against the land of Priam and destroyed it. [1] Modern historians may disagree with the writing there by their ancient predecessor, but the penultimate war between Rhomania and Persia also began, in a way, at the site of Troy.

Odysseus had spent the year-and-a-half as Emperor crisscrossing the Asian parts of the Roman heartland, from Nicaea to Trebizond to Antioch and back. Most of it was spent overseeing military exercises and preparing for the coming campaign, while the actual administration of the Empire as a whole was overseen by his sister. Only in elements that directly impacted the war-planning did Odysseus take the reins, such as in the negotiations with the Georgians that took place in Trebizond.

However before the truce expired, Odysseus returned to the west of Anatolia and placed himself at the top of a hill in the Kephalate of Skammandros, one that overlooked the Hellespont. His father, then a young junior official, had sat atop that hill and written a letter wondering about the stories the stones here could tell if they could speak. While Demetrios wrote, Odysseus painted. He painted two landscape paintings, one overlooking the sea and the other the land from his vantage point. These, the first in his remarkable and famous ‘Campaign Paintings’, were sent to Athena in Constantinople before he marched back east.

That hill had once been fabled Troy.

* * *

Estate near Prousa, January 18, 1641:

Odysseus and Maria walked around another bend of the footpath which led from the nearest garden area back to the main house, which was now in sight. It was a cool but clear day and they’d spent an hour or so walking over parts of the estate, the largest that belonged to them as persons, as opposed to Imperial grants. The conversation had been entirely about economic management.

Odysseus did not see his wife or his two sons, Herakleios now nearing 9 years old, and Demetrios, approaching his 2nd birthday, very often. The hesychastic retreats and army encampments where he spent most of his days were no place for two small boys, and while there were women at the latter, they were of a type far more comparable to Maria in her past life, before she was Maria. But there was more to it than that.

He looked over at Maria, the two maintaining their pace. She was still stunningly beautiful, but the lust, to be blunt but accurate, he’d felt before when he looked at her was gone. It was replaced by shame, guilt, regret. It wasn’t the war, but just some more years, some more experience, that let him see what his young lust for a beautiful older woman, the lover of his brother-in-all-but-name, had ensured he could not then, before it was too late.

“You never did love me, did you?” he asked.

Maria stiffened but didn’t break her stride. “No, no I didn’t. Warmth yes, affection, but never love.”

“Thank you for not lying to me.”

“No point in doing so. If you wanted the lie, you could’ve just continued to not ask the question.”

“Fair enough.” They were nearing the main house now. “But did you love…him?”

A pause. “Yes, yes I did.”

“Me too.” They were at the front gate now. “I’m sorry, Maria. I know it’s a decade too late and it’s no good anyway but I’m sorry. Yes, you said yes but it’s not like you really had a choice. I’m sorry for what I did to you, what I forced you to do. I can’t make up for that, but I promise I’ll do what I can to make it right.”

With that he turned and started to head for the stables. After all of that, spending the night here was definitely wrong. “Odysseus,” Maria called out to him. He turned around to look at her. “I hope you find peace someday.”

“Me too. Thank you, Maria,” he said. But a voice in the back of his head spoke differently. Peace? For people like us that was never an option.

* * *

1641 continued: The ending of the truce in February was not conducive to the immediate resumption of major military operations. Trying to move large numbers of troops across Anatolia in winter, especially over the elevated central plateau, is difficult even when everything cooperates and the Little Ice Age, while not fully baring its teeth, is starting to bite. And even if the Romans did manage that, then they would be advancing right as winter runoff swells the Euphrates and Tigris and massively increases their flood risk.

Major troop movements from western Anatolia thus do not start until well after the truce has expired, with the first few months of renewed warfare consisting of intensified cavalry skirmishes and raids. A key component for the Romans in this warfare are auxiliaries from their various allied Bedouin tribes such as the Anizzah. Another is the Turkopouloi, the regular light cavalry contingents of the tagmata, drawn primarily from the herdsmen of central and eastern Anatolia in Asia and Vlach or Albanian pastoralists in Europe. These pastoralist groups, peripatetic nomads who operate on the fringes of or within the margins of the agricultural settled components of the Empire, are an important if often unruly part of the Empire.

The term ‘Turkopouloi’, sons of Turks, in this context can lead to some confusion. The nomadic herders of central Anatolia are largely descended from various Turkoman groups who remained in Anatolia after the Laskarid re-conquest, converting to Orthodoxy and speaking Greek (with more Turkish loanwords than is the case for Aegean-basin dialects), but retaining much of their material lifeways. However there was substantial intermarriage between the Turkomans and others, and some of these are Greeks who adopted the lifestyle. As one goes east, the Greco-Turkish mixture of the central plateau gains substantial Armenian and especially Kurdish components, with the odd Caucasian and even Mongol dash (from the days of the Il-Khanate).

And all these various nomadic groups flow around and rub shoulders (and more) with the settled agricultural regions such as the areas around Ikonion and Sebastea, which are just as ethnically mixed. One reported advantage of the Romans classifying everyone on the basis of religion and occupation as opposed to ethnicity is that the former is substantially less paperwork.

Notably the Ottoman setup is very similar. They also have many nomadic pastoral groups operating within the territories delineated as under their control on political maps. Operating in the more rugged terrain suitable for grazing but not growing crops between the areas of settled agriculture, the pastoralists in both Empires are effective sources of animal products, skilled and effective light troops (mostly cavalry, but mountaineer herders in both are dangerous light infantry), and headaches for the central government. The constant battle and negotiation between the ‘desert’ and the sown is a continual undercurrent in both societies.

Western countries are not immune from similar pressures, although to lesser extents. There are the great sheep drives on the Spanish Meseta, an important component of the Spanish economy but always a source of headaches from the disputes between herders and farmers. In Italy, there are also sheep drives from winter to summer pastures that traverse the length of the peninsula, ignoring political borders, and which the local powers all agree are too important to be interrupted by war. In Hungary there are the great cattle drives, moving livestock from the plains to the hungry markets of southern Germany. And in northern Europe, there are the cattle drives from Denmark and northern Germany, where cattle, hungry after the long winter, are moved west to graze in the pastures of northern Lotharingia and fatten up before being driven to the great mart of Antwerp. Smaller examples also abound, such as the sheepherders of the Massif Central.

The main Roman field army that masses in Upper Mesopotamia is roughly 70,000 strong, including the attached auxiliaries, although there are also some kastron troops, militia, and short-term irregulars that help provide security for communications and logistics. Its target is Mesopotamia proper.

Meanwhile there is an Egyptian army eighteen thousand strong whose objective is the various interior Syrian lands that have been held by the Ottomans during the Truce. The Egyptians face no regular Ottoman troops, just local levies and allied Bedouins, although the Egyptians have Bedouin allies as well. The Romans offered three tourmai to reinforce the Egyptians but they declined, suspecting (rightly) that if Roman troops were present, they would demand being in the lead at the eventual capture of Jerusalem, despite being a small fraction of the army. Given the recent religious tensions stirred up by Ibrahim regarding holy sites and religious properties, the Coptic Egyptians find that unacceptable. If they’re doing all or the bulk of the work, they will get the credit for reclaiming Jerusalem.

The Georgians meanwhile are invading their former trans-Aras lands with 30,000 men with their chief target the city of Tabriz. With Ibrahim focusing the bulk of his strength in Mesopotamia, they have substantial numerical superiority. However the terrain is an absolute nightmare, making the going slow.

There are no Omani or Ethiopian forces in motion. The Omani had insisted on being ceded Hormuz, which had been seized by Iskandar the Great from them early in his career. However Odysseus is intent on placing Iskandar the Younger on the Persian throne. To Odysseus, Iskandar the Younger is his younger brother just as Andreas III was his elder brother. He will not give his younger brother a mutilated prize, with only the status of Mesopotamia a question mark, and that is the end of the discussion. The Omani, thus seeing no benefit for themselves in the contest, decide to stay out. The Ethiopians, seeing things the same as their Omani allies, also remain neutral.

Neither Odysseus nor Athena are bothered by this. Gonder and Muscat are operating on the principle of self-interest. For Constantinople to complain would be transparent and utter hypocrisy and to make a diplomatic issue out of it would not be in Rhomania’s best interest. The two neutrals wouldn’t have been sending forces to Mesopotamia, where everyone knows the main event will be; everything else is a sideshow which will not affect the general outcome no matter which way they go.

With the tagmata of western Anatolia on the scene and the Egyptians and Georgians beginning their own pushes, the army commanded by Odysseus Sideros musters out for Mosul, the first obstacle on their march to the east.


[1] Herodotus, Book 1, Paragraphs 4-5, translated by G.C Macaulay and revised by Donald Lateiner, (Barnes & Nobles Classic: New York), 2004.
 
I suppose the "Great Crime" is going to be almost entirely conducted against the Arabs, not the Persians/Turks. Surprising that Odysseus wants to leave Persia mostly intact, but there you have it.

Can't like the sound of "penultimate war" for Persia. Does that mean Persia as a state will cease to exist as an entity standing up to Rome? Or is it some sort of renewed eternal peace that lasts until the modern day?
 
Can't like the sound of "penultimate war" for Persia. Does that mean Persia as a state will cease to exist as an entity standing up to Rome? Or is it some sort of renewed eternal peace that lasts until the modern day?
Err, wouldn't that be the ultimate war for Persia. Pretty sure penultimate implies at least one more war.
 
Err, wouldn't that be the ultimate war for Persia. Pretty sure penultimate implies at least one more war.
Well, yes. But given how frequently Rome and Persia have fought historically and ITTL, you'd expect there to be a dozen more wars between them after this, not one.
 
Can't like the sound of "penultimate war" for Persia. Does that mean Persia as a state will cease to exist as an entity standing up to Rome? Or is it some sort of renewed eternal peace that lasts until the modern day?
Most likely the latter. His goal is to defeat/kill Ibrahim and install Iskandar to the throne. While they could war for several more times, a Rhomania and Persia that stabilizes its borders and reaches a tacitly agreed-to peace would be a pretty big boon to both powers.
 
Most likely the latter. His goal is to defeat/kill Ibrahim and install Iskandar to the throne. While they could war for several more times, a Rhomania and Persia that stabilizes its borders and reaches a tacitly agreed-to peace would be a pretty big boon to both powers.
We'll see. As a rule, Rome has been pretty brutal lately ITTL to their enemies. It'd be nice to see them break that chain and make a lasting peace.
 
We'll see. As a rule, Rome has been pretty brutal lately ITTL to their enemies. It'd be nice to see them break that chain and make a lasting peace.
Most of their most vile propaganda and jingoism is targeted towards the Arabs and the Latins. Persia is both a more honorable foe in the eyes of Romans and extremely hard to conquer historically.

Mesopotamia might be lost to the Ottomans, but it's highly unlikely all of Persia gets absorbed into the Roman Empire. Maybe we'll see a line drawn in the sand with the lands around Mosul as the dividing line later on, but time will tell.

RIP Odysseus's love life. At least he accepted that Maria didn't love him as much as she loved Andreas. Seeing the badass Odysseus as a sad third wheel in their relationship is both hilarious and incredibly tragic.
 
With the tagmata of western Anatolia on the scene and the Egyptians and Georgians beginning their own pushes, the army commanded by Odysseus Sideros musters out for Mosul, the first obstacle on their march to the east.

The staggeringly impressive fortifications of Mosul erected in the last years of the 1630s would not have been possible without the revenue derived from this overland trade.​

(Emphasis in the second quote is mine)

Safe to say Mosul will be an exceedingly tough nut to crack. I am looking forward to seeing how Odysseus and his army go about it. He doesn't have the massive hosts of Thessaloniki here - he's got to be cautious or else this campaign will be over before it has a chance to truly begin. Less brute strength and more guile is needed.
 
(Emphasis in the second quote is mine)

Safe to say Mosul will be an exceedingly tough nut to crack. I am looking forward to seeing how Odysseus and his army go about it. He doesn't have the massive hosts of Thessaloniki here - he's got to be cautious or else this campaign will be over before it has a chance to truly begin. Less brute strength and more guile is needed.
I imagine the sizeable stash of captured Triune guns is going to come in handy. Considering it's the very first stop on the campaign, I have to imagine he's planned for this.
 
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