Supposing Edward VI of England survives to his late 70s, what does his reign look like?

[M79]

But the thing is no monarch back then (or at least I know of) made it into their late 70s, Philip made it to 71, so if you want you could make him live to 75. But any further is a bit out there.

John Louis of Nassau-Saarbrucken (1472-1545) was 72 when he expired.

Christian-August of the Palatinate-Sulzbach (1632-1708) was 75 at his end.

William IV of Henneberg-Schleusingen (1480-1559) was 78 when he died.

Bernard VII of Lippe (1429-1511) was over 80 when he passed.

Late 70s is long but not impossible given the contemporary rulers above, especially if fitness and semi-decent eating continue to be a part of Edward's life well into middle age or longer. Besides given how much the events of the Elizabethan and Tudor eras come to define England's history the impact of Edward ruling for those years will be disproportionate.

 

[RedKing]

John Louis of Nassau-Saarbrucken (1472-1545) was 72 when he expired.

Christian-August of the Palatinate-Sulzbach (1632-1708) was 75 at his end.

William IV of Henneberg-Schleusingen (1480-1559) was 78 when he died.

Bernard VII of Lippe (1429-1511) was over 80 when he passed.

Late 70s is long but not impossible given the contemporary rulers above, especially if fitness and semi-decent eating continue to be a part of Edward's life well into middle age or longer. Besides given how much the events of the Elizabethan and Tudor eras come to define England's history the impact of Edward ruling for those years will be disproportionate.

I suppose, but the point stands the average Tudor life expectancy is somewhere in the 50s or maybe in the 60s if you count Meg Beaufort as well.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

John Louis of Nassau-Saarbrucken (1472-1545) was 72 when he expired.

Christian-August of the Palatinate-Sulzbach (1632-1708) was 75 at his end.

William IV of Henneberg-Schleusingen (1480-1559) was 78 when he died.

Bernard VII of Lippe (1429-1511) was over 80 when he passed.

Late 70s is long but not impossible given the contemporary rulers above, especially if fitness and semi-decent eating continue to be a part of Edward's life well into middle age or longer. Besides given how much the events of the Elizabethan and Tudor eras come to define England's history the impact of Edward ruling for those years will be disproportionate.

None of whom are related to Edward VI, and none of whom would've had the job of ruling a country CLOSE to the size of England. Maybe one or two shires at best.

 

[Jonathan1997]

You might have seen the burning this time of CATHOLIC “heretics”(many historians declare that Edward was giving signs of being quite un-tolerant with @ least a touch of out-&-out fanaticism. Certainly both
Elizabeth & MARY would have had to toe the Protestant line- or else...)

Sounds like he was another Richard II in the making.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Mary might flee the country. She nearly did in IIRC 1550.

Edward is not going to marry a Catholic unless she converts.

If MQoS is widowed and returns to Scotland as OTL, and Knox is Edward's chaplain... Edward might lead a campaign to end the "unnatural" rule of a woman and remove a Catholic. Who would be the next Scots heir after MQoS? (Because she won't convert and marry Edward.) Is there an heiress for Edward to marry, in a neo -"Rough Wooing"? Or perhaps marry Elizabeth to a male heir?

One big question: how long does Edward tolerate Northumberland's domination? At some point he's going to decide that Northumberland is too big for his britches, and quite possibly have him "cut down to size" (IYKWIM).

 

[VVD0D95]

Mary might flee the country. She nearly did in IIRC 1550.

Edward is not going to marry a Catholic unless she converts.

If MQoS is widowed and returns to Scotland as OTL, and Knox is Edward's chaplain... Edward might lead a campaign to end the "unnatural" rule of a woman and remove a Catholic. Who would be the next Scots heir after MQoS? (Because she won't convert and marry Edward.) Is there an heiress for Edward to marry, in a neo -"Rough Wooing"? Or perhaps marry Elizabeth to a male heir?

One big question: how long does Edward tolerate Northumberland's domination? At some point he's going to decide that Northumberland is too big for his britches, and quite possibly have him "cut down to size" (IYKWIM).

The earl of Arran is next in line for Scotland, and he flirted with Protestantism abd Catholicism.

 

[FalconHonour]

The earl of Arran is next in line for Scotland, and he flirted with Protestantism abd Catholicism.

There was definitely talk of Elizabeth marrying Arran OTL. In an Edwardian England, I could see that becoming more than talk.

If Edward refuses a Catholic bride outright - which I could totally see, if he can delay his marriage until he no longer has a regency council - , would he marry Jane Grey like Frances Brandon dreamed of, do we think? If she didn't marry Guildford Dudley. Or would he want a protestant foreign bride? Anna or Dorothea of Denmark seem the most obvious choices. Dorothea, b.1546, didn't marry until 1561 OTL so she'd be free when we need her to be, although perhaps rather young. Anna, b. 1532, was married in 1548, but perhaps we could butterfly her Saxon match?

Or if you want to go Swedish, Katharina Vasa (b.1539), or her younger sisters Cecilia (b.1540) or Anna (b.1545) could work. Sophia and Elizabeth are a bit too young, I think.

 

[HortenseMancini]

If Edward refuses a Catholic bride outright - which I could totally see, if he can delay his marriage until he no longer has a regency council - , would he marry Jane Grey like Frances Brandon dreamed of, do we think? If she didn't marry Guildford Dudley. Or would he want a protestant foreign bride? Anna or Dorothea of Denmark seem the most obvious choices. Dorothea, b.1546, didn't marry until 1561 OTL so she'd be free when we need her to be, although perhaps rather young. Anna, b. 1532, was married in 1548, but perhaps we could butterfly her Saxon match?

I think edward’s match with Elisabeth of Valois could go through...Henri ii was willing to do it, and edward would probably hold out hope that Elisabeth would convert.

There was definitely talk of Elizabeth marrying Arran OTL. In an Edwardian England, I could see that becoming more than talk.

I kinda want Elizabeth to marry Erik XIV of Sweden...would be interesting to see how her presence could affect his reign.

 

[Awkwardvulture]

Elizabeth (in my view) would most likely get shipped off to Denmark, Sweden or possibly Saxony.. Mary for her part, would most likely be closely monitored, though perhaps she could retire to a convent as a nun or Abbess.. As for Edward's lifespan, I think 74 would probably be the longest he could reasonably live(let's not forget that women (Juana I, Catherine of Austria, Antoinette of Bourbon) , even in this time, often lived longer if they didn't die from childbirth)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

There was definitely talk of Elizabeth marrying Arran OTL. In an Edwardian England, I could see that becoming more than talk.

If Edward refuses a Catholic bride outright - which I could totally see, if he can delay his marriage until he no longer has a regency council - , would he marry Jane Grey like Frances Brandon dreamed of, do we think? If she didn't marry Guildford Dudley. Or would he want a protestant foreign bride? Anna or Dorothea of Denmark seem the most obvious choices. Dorothea, b.1546, didn't marry until 1561 OTL so she'd be free when we need her to be, although perhaps rather young. Anna, b. 1532, was married in 1548, but perhaps we could butterfly her Saxon match?

Or if you want to go Swedish, Katharina Vasa (b.1539), or her younger sisters Cecilia (b.1540) or Anna (b.1545) could work. Sophia and Elizabeth are a bit too young, I think.

Edward WOULD marry Élisabeth de Valois because he SINCERELY believed that he COULD get her to convert. The Tudors all had a touch of delusion about them.

And while OFTEN OFTEN suggested oncthis board, Ned marrying Jane Grey is sheer lunacy. He is born of TWO English parents. His ONLY foreign tie is a half-sister (who defies him). Mary's too valuable to be married off abroad and too unvaluable (a spinster, ) to be seriously considered by any foreign powers.

 

[RedKing]

Mary might flee the country. She nearly did in IIRC 1550.

Maybe she might marry Philip again? I could see her doing it here.

Edward is not going to marry a Catholic unless she converts.

He was under the impression Elisabeth of France would convert in otl. He could always marry Jane Grey if he needs to

If MQoS is widowed and returns to Scotland as OTL, and Knox is Edward's chaplain... Edward might lead a campaign to end the "unnatural" rule of a woman and remove a Catholic. Who would be the next Scots heir after MQoS? (Because she won't convert and marry Edward.) Is there an heiress for Edward to marry, in a neo -"Rough Wooing"? Or perhaps marry Elizabeth to a male heir?

Hmm, well butterflies could definitely lead to Francis II surviving. I doubt Edward would invade though, that’s quite risky, especially since Mary might accept a Spanish or Austrian match here (she was offered one in otl if I am correct).

If she still marries Darnley she’ll arrange a march for James VI that gives her an alliance with Spain. She might have more support in a Second Rough Wooing as the Scots could be more moderate with their religion without Knox.

 

[JanWellem]

But the thing is no monarch back then (or at least I know of) made it into their late 70s, Philip made it to 71, so if you want you could make him live to 75. But any further is a bit out there.

Ramesses II died aged 90, Justinian aged 83, William IV of Henneberg-Schleusingen aged almost 81, Bernhard VII of Lippe aged 82, so there are examples of monarchs, who lived to their late 70s or longer, though admittedly it was pretty rare.

If Henry II's jousting accident is butterflied away, couldn't Francis II's premature death be butterflied as well. I wonder what the repercussions would be if Mary Stuart remains in France as dauphine and later Queen of France for significantly longer and bears Francis children.

 

[mcdnab]

Mary might flee the country. She nearly did in IIRC 1550.

Edward is not going to marry a Catholic unless she converts.

If MQoS is widowed and returns to Scotland as OTL, and Knox is Edward's chaplain... Edward might lead a campaign to end the "unnatural" rule of a woman and remove a Catholic. Who would be the next Scots heir after MQoS? (Because she won't convert and marry Edward.) Is there an heiress for Edward to marry, in a neo -"Rough Wooing"? Or perhaps marry Elizabeth to a male heir?

One big question: how long does Edward tolerate Northumberland's domination? At some point he's going to decide that Northumberland is too big for his britches, and quite possibly have him "cut down to size" (IYKWIM).

To be fair Northumberland was clever enough to realise that that the King was growing up and he deferred to him, allowed him an opinion and consulted him - in other words treated him like the King as he grew older. It's quite clear that the King was making his own decisions and in some areas he commanded things that Northumberland was not necessarily in favour of. In the short term Dudley is quite likely to survive as a prominent member of the council as Edward comes of age.

On his marriage religion aside I suspect Edward's temperament would be that he would convince himself his own learning would enable him to persuade a catholic wife to see the error of her ways. Whether she did or not is of course another matter, however any wife (of any religion) would have been raised and educated to submit to her husband - her private thoughts were of course her own affair.

On Jane - the proposal of marriage to Edward was largely in the head of Thomas Seymour (he persuaded the Grey's to leave her in his wife Catherine Parr's custody) and seems to have agreed with Grey to propose her as the King's eventual bride. The marital rumour was just another one of Thomas' doomed schemes to gain more power then his brother the protector. It was rather tainted by his fall and Grey was very close to falling from favour over the whole issue - he survived and very quickly transferred his loyalty to Northumberland when the time came (hence the Grey/Dudley match) - in a scenario of Edward surviving that match more than likely survives - given it might well have been in planning before Edward's death looked imminent. It's not a great match for Jane but it would suit Dudley given Jane's likelihood of inheriting a large portion of her father and mother's estates. (Suffolk would be extinct on Henry's death, Dorset would pass to his brother, the three baronies (Ferrrers of Groby, Bonville and Harrington) would fall into abeyance between his daughters) although its not impossible her mother would not have more children and produce a male heir - she was in her 30s and her last live child Mary was born in 1545 - and she did go on to become pregnant in OTL by her second husband

On his age - well his maternal grandfather Sir John Seymour lived into his sixties, his maternal grandmother into her 70s. His uncle Somerset was about 50/51 at his execution. So he has reasonable genes on his maternal side, his paternal side didn't do quite as well. Henry VIII's health is pretty much like a modern sportsman who is fit and active and used to being able to indulge his appetite until he stops his sport and gains weight very quickly as he doesn't adapt his diet bringing with it a host of health issues.
I don't think it's unreasonable that he would live into his 60s or 70s, depending on how active and fit he remains.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Maybe she might marry Philip again? I could see her doing it here.

And why exactly would philip want to marry mary ittl? Edward's throne is secure, everyone recognizes him as the rightful king of england.

He was under the impression Elisabeth of France would convert in otl. He could always marry Jane Grey if he needs to

If the pod is edward surviving his final illness then jane is already married. besides, she would be an absolutely useless match. edward needs a foreign bride.

 

[RedKing]

And why exactly would philip want to marry mary ittl? Edward's throne is secure, everyone recognizes him as the rightful king of england.

I don’t know, it was more of a suggestion. Maybe for an alliance with England? I agree that of all of Henry VIII’s children Edward VI is the only one who is undisputedly legitimate.

If the pod is edward surviving his final illness then jane is already married. besides, she would be an absolutely useless match. edward needs a foreign bride.

Yeah, but divorce. Also if he can’t get a foreign bride Jane Grey is the best option.

 

[mcdnab]

The only reason Mary was considered for Philip by Charles V was because she was a reigning sovereign - and Charles (who had done nothing for her for years) probably felt he owed her apart from the obvious absorption of England into the Hapsburg dominions if she produced a child. Under circumstances where a healthy Edward betrothed to a French princess looks likely to reign indefinitely a 30 something spinster has little to offer Philip.
Most likely in these circumstances Philip's attentions will turn to Maria of Portugal - she was seriously in the running before Mary's accession to the English throne.

Edward as King is going to be very very attractive to numerous foreign monarchs keen for an alliance which usually trumped religion - for the higher ranks the obvious candidates are as follows Elisabeth of France, Dorothea of Denmark (if he's prepared to wait a few years), Catherine Vasa of Sweden, the widowed Joanna of Austria or one of Ferdinand I younger daughters. - The list is fairly endless - the Pope threatened excommunication if the Valois marriage went ahead but that didn't seem to bother Henri II much so any of the others are possible.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Most likely in these circumstances Philip's attentions will turn to Maria of Portugal - she was seriously in the running before Mary's accession to the English throne.

Oh a marriage between Philip and Maria is almost a definite ITTL.

Edward as King is going to be very very attractive to numerous foreign monarchs keen for an alliance which usually trumped religion - for the higher ranks the obvious candidates are as follows Elisabeth of France, Dorothea of Denmark (if he's prepared to wait a few years), Catherine Vasa of Sweden, the widowed Joanna of Austria or one of Ferdinand I younger daughters. - The list is fairly endless - the Pope threatened excommunication if the Valois marriage went ahead but that didn't seem to bother Henri II much so any of the others are possible.

Yeah, but divorce. Also if he can’t get a foreign bride Jane Grey is the best option.

Edward VI would not marry Jane Grey...he clearly had other options available and Jane grey's marriage to edward was indeed all in the head of thomas seymour.

 

[RedKing]

Oh a marriage between Philip and Maria is almost a definite ITTL.


Edward VI would not marry Jane Grey...he clearly had other options available and Jane grey's marriage to edward was indeed all in the head of thomas seymour.

Oh okay, I mean it's unlikely he would anyways, maybe as a last resort.

 

[isabella]

The only reason Mary was considered for Philip by Charles V was because she was a reigning sovereign - and Charles (who had done nothing for her for years) probably felt he owed her apart from the obvious absorption of England into the Hapsburg dominions if she produced a child. Under circumstances where a healthy Edward betrothed to a French princess looks likely to reign indefinitely a 30 something spinster has little to offer Philip.
Most likely in these circumstances Philip's attentions will turn to Maria of Portugal - she was seriously in the running before Mary's accession to the English throne.

Edward as King is going to be very very attractive to numerous foreign monarchs keen for an alliance which usually trumped religion - for the higher ranks the obvious candidates are as follows Elisabeth of France, Dorothea of Denmark (if he's prepared to wait a few years), Catherine Vasa of Sweden, the widowed Joanna of Austria or one of Ferdinand I younger daughters. - The list is fairly endless - the Pope threatened excommunication if the Valois marriage went ahead but that didn't seem to bother Henri II much so any of the others are possible.

No way Edward will marry an Habsburg.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

On his marriage religion aside I suspect Edward's temperament would be that he would convince himself his own learning would enable him to persuade a catholic wife to see the error of her ways.

If he is to marry a Catholic, then either:

It must be agreed that she will convert to Protestantism before the wedding. I can't see that happening with Elisabeth de Valois.

Or:

It must be agreed that she may continue to practice Catholicism in private - with a personal confessor, etc. This was the condition of Charles I's marriage to Henriette Marie of France, who brought twelve Oratorian priests in her personal entourage. I can't see Edward agreeing to anything like that.

So IMO he won't marry Elisabeth.

OTOH, he might marry MQoS without requiring explicit conversion in advance, if he can restrict her household to Protestants and prevent her from practicing Catholicism. This might be possible if he seizes control of Scotland (say with the support of the Scots Protestant faction). MQoS might be bullied that far, while Edward may believe (as suggested) that he can persuade her over time.

WRT MQoS's first husband Francis II: AIUI, his health problems were congenital, thus would not be affected by Edward's survival.