No WWI or equivalent, what happens to the British Empire by 1945?

[Deleted member 94680]

How often did Britain fund Dominion military, and what was the purpose, rather than using that money on the home islands (manpower, prestige)? And did Britain give foreign aid to the dominions?

Well to start with, everything with the Royal Navy was funded by Britain OTL (IIRC) barring a few battleships and the like so getting Australia to go for the “fleet unit” idea would be an overall saving.

As to foreign aid to the Dominions (does it count as “foreign aid” if its for a Dominion?) I think if it’s for military spending outside of colonial militias and the like, London paid for it all. I could well be wrong...

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

After WWI the Royal Navy gave the Dominions entire (if small) navies worth of ships.

 

[Dorknought]

First off, an excellent post, loaded with good information. Fantastic that there is a document it comes from as well.

If Australia were to accept the “Henderson Plan” would there be a chance Britain funds at least one of the Fleet Bases?

Thankyou for the feedback. The Dominions understood that they were taking this burden on themselves - all part of 'growing up'. There would be plenty of opportunity to borrow money on London markets to fund it. In terms of the original Fleet Unit, GB was to provide 1 'Fleet Unit' for the South China Sea but Churchill reneged on this and HMS Indefatigable and HMS New Zealand were kept in home waters.

 

[Dorknought]

After WWI the Royal Navy gave the Dominions entire (if small) navies worth of ships.

After the war, the Dominion problems are manpower and political will.

In 1918, the Dominions were still opposed to the idea of a single Imperial Navy, Canadian PM Borden suggested on behalf of the Dominion PMs that an Admiralty advisor visit each country in turn. In September 1918 the Admiralty agreed to send a Representative as early as convenient after the wars end. This later became Jellicoe's Empire Mission in Feb 1919.

In April, from Paris, Borden asked the Admiralty if Canada could take over a battleship, cruiser and requisite destroyers and submarines.

The Admiralty was quick to agree and in May 1919 proposed:
1 BC Indomitable
3 CL Arethusa
1 DL Marksman
8 S class DD
4 L Class SS
2 H Class SL already gifted

Estimated running costs were put at £1.327m per year if these ships stayed in Canadian waters. The RN acknowledged that the RCN would be in the nature of a training squadron for some years to come. At wars end the RCN only had 62 officers - not enough to run the BC.

Asked in August if they wanted the ships the Canadians demurred pending Jellicoe's report. Jellicoe arrived in Canada in Nov 1919 and quickly noted the dissension among Canadian politicians. Even the Naval minister recognised that the current RCN was a 'pure waste of money'.

For local defence Jellicoe suggested 3 CL, 8 DD and 8 SS. If Canada wanted to co-operate in Imperial Defence then 1-2 'Fleet Units' of a BC, CV, 2CL, 6DD, 4 SS and minesweepers and support ships. Gift ships on offer from the RN had to be taken up by the end of Jan 1920. Parliament asked for an extension on 1 CL, 1 DL, 4DD, 6SS and 8PG. As no policy had been set, the pre-war policy of a training cadre was continued and only 1 CL and 2 DD were asked for. These were initially Glasgow, Talisman and Termagant but Arethusa, Patrician and Patriot were selected instead with crew requirements totaling 486.

 

[Dorknought]

The first question is:

What form does Ulster resistance to Home Rule take?

I'll pull from Jack Beatty's: The Lost History of 1914 .

A UVF document titled “The Coup” called for a “sudden, complete, and paralyzing blow” to be struck at the “right moment.” Simultaneously:
1) Cut rail lines so that no police or Army could be sent to Ulster.
2) Cut telegraph and cable lines.
3) Seize all depots containing arms, ammunition, etc.
4) All avenues of approach by road for troops or police into Ulster should be closed by isolated detachments.
5) Guns of field artillery [caliber] should be captured either by direct attack—or else by previous arrangement with the gunners.
6) All depots for supply of troops or police should be captured.

“The Coup” displayed tactical acumen; possibly it was the work of a staff officer who had resigned his commission in 1910 to train Ulstermen to resist home rule. Retired officers had gone over to Carson by the handful. Serving officers would follow at his call: “We have pledges and promises from some of the greatest generals in the army that when the time comes and if necessary they will come over to help us keep the old flag flying and so defy those who dare to invade our liberties.”

The Liberal government lacked the ability to enforce Home Rule with the inclusion of Northern Ireland.

The government requested General Gough and the other officers to withdraw their resignations. Negotiating the terms of his return to service with the War Office, Gough, counseled by Sir Henry Wilson, rightly regarded as a “tireless intrigue” by Asquith, laid down conditions. The government agreed to these, using talking points prepared by the ambidextrous Wilson. Gough demanded more concessions. Seely on his own agreed. (“If he had a little more brains,” a War Office wit remarked, “he’d be half-witted.”) Gough left London with a letter promising that the army would not be used to “enforce the present Home Rule Bill on Ulster.” Waiting for his train at Euston Station, Gough told the military correspondent for the Morning Post, “I have got the assurances I asked for … I dictated the terms, and wrote them in my own hand.”

Ultimately, the Nationals had caved in to the Liberals excluding Ulster.

After the Buckingham Palace Conference impasse, Asquith finally dared to say Redmond nay. He prepared an Amending Bill permitting any Ulster county to vote itself permanently out of the home rule scheme. This about-face carried political risk. Appeasement of Carson’s Unionists might roil Redmond’s Nationalists to vote against the government, bringing it down. But Redmond, recognizing that replacing the Liberals with the Unionists would only doom his cause, had “reluctantly agreed” to accept exclusion when the Bachelor’s Walk Massacre made that politically impossible.

Austrian shells were falling on the Grand Hotel in Belgrade when Captain Craig, the UVF commander in Belfast, wired Carson in London that “you may take it that immediately you signify by the pre-arranged code that we are to go ahead, everything prepared will be carried out to the letter … All difficulties have been overcome and we are in a very strong position.” Anticipating that Churchill would order a blockade of Ulster as soon as the Ulster Provisional Government was proclaimed, Craig was arranging the delivery of mass quantities of flour, tea, and other staples from Glasgow to stockpile against scarcity when Churchill was moving to mobilize the Royal Navy for war against Germany. Russia had mobilized against Austria when Lord Milner, a Unionist ultra, was still at work designing the currency of the Provisional government. Berlin was about to implement its Period Preparatory to War measures when Asquith was in the cabinet room poring over maps of Ulster, preparing his speech for the last reading of the bill amending home rule.

 

[Dorknought]

How often did Britain fund Dominion military, and what was the purpose, rather than using that money on the home islands (manpower, prestige)? And did Britain give foreign aid to the dominions?

Britain didn't fund the Dominions defence. Colony's would provide a naval subsidy, ie Natal had been giving IIRC £35,000 per year and this funding was directed to a new cruiser 'HMS Natal' in 1905.

Australian defence spending actually lived off the Empire well past WW2, Canada took a free ride too. In the link below is a hundred years of Australian defence spending. Notice it hovered around 1% prior to WW2 and after it stabilised around 2.5%. 2.5% is common for independent nations having to pay for their own defence. The Henderson plan was for only 2% on the Navy.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... num=&view=

 

[Deleted member 94680]

.
A UVF document titled “The Coup” called for a “sudden, complete, and paralyzing blow” to be struck at the “right moment.”
...
“The Coup” displayed tactical acumen; possibly it was the work of a staff officer who had resigned his commission in 1910 to train Ulstermen to resist home rule. ...Serving officers would follow at his call...

The government requested General Gough and the other officers to withdraw their resignations. ...Gough demanded more concessions. Seely on his own agreed. ...Gough left London with a letter promising that the army would not be used to “enforce the present Home Rule Bill on Ulster.

After the Buckingham Palace Conference impasse, Asquith finally dared to say Redmond nay. He prepared an Amending Bill permitting any Ulster county to vote itself permanently out of the home rule scheme.

...the UVF commander in Belfast, wired Carson in London that “you may take it that immediately you signify by the pre-arranged code that we are to go ahead, everything prepared will be carried out to the letter … All difficulties have been overcome and we are in a very strong position.” Anticipating that Churchill would order a blockade of Ulster as soon as the Ulster Provisional Government was proclaimed, Craig was arranging the delivery of mass quantities of flour, tea, and other staples from Glasgow to stockpile ... Lord Milner, a Unionist ultra, was still at work designing the currency of the Provisional government. ..

Asquith was in the cabinet room poring over maps of Ulster, preparing his speech for the last reading of the bill amending home rule.

So what’s the plan here? Proclaim an Independent Ulster and fight British soldiers until they agree that Ulster can join the United Kingdom? Lord Milner (a member of the House of Lords) as Premier who would then just return to British service? Look how well that worked out OTL for British politicians turning their hand to armed resistance.

 

[N7Buck]

So what’s the plan here? Proclaim an Independent Ulster and fight British soldiers until they agree that Ulster can join the United Kingdom? Lord Milner (a member of the House of Lords) as Premier who would then just return to British service? Look how well that worked out OTL for British politicians turning their hand to armed resistance.

There is a particular context of that Ulster rebellion, they aren't rebelling against their country, but the government.
This is a big difference from a secessionist rebellion.

As to how the rebels are treated would depend on how many casualties they inflicted on police and military.

This scenario reminds me a lot of the Russian annexation of Crimea, which was bloodless.

How many Royal Irish Constables are going to be willing to resist the Unionsts. It is the Army that might be wiling to put down the rebellion.

 

[Hood]

So what’s the plan here? Proclaim an Independent Ulster and fight British soldiers until they agree that Ulster can join the United Kingdom? Lord Milner (a member of the House of Lords) as Premier who would then just return to British service? Look how well that worked out OTL for British politicians turning their hand to armed resistance.

This was the irony of the Ulster "Loyalists", willing to commit treason. Immediately prewar iirc the IPP was in negotiations to come to some agreement with the british gov and carson over home rule. 4 counties under direct rule (perhaps later devolved, can't remember exactly) while the rest of Ireland got it's home government. immediately post rising, Redmond again attempting to get home rule through to try moderate an increasingly radicalised population (something which took him and the IPP out of the irish public conversation during the crucial months after, therein leaving the country without a moderate voice and paving the way for Sinn Fein ) was willing to go for 6 counties, which was more than even carson expected. Partition, in one way or another was almost a certainty by 1914. Carson likely had increased interest for a peaceful solution after the Curragh Mutiny, someone in another thread mentioned bringing in colonial troops should Ulster fight, which would prevent a lot of the issues of "loyal unionists" unwilling to kill eachother

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Immediately prewar iirc the IPP was in negotiations to come to some agreement with the british gov and carson over home rule. 4 counties under direct rule (perhaps later devolved, can't remember exactly) while the rest of Ireland got it's home government.

Would that be Antrim, Armagh, Down and Londonderry? I’ve always wondered about the 1910 election being used as a plebiscite for an Ireland/Ulster split

Partition, in one way or another was almost a certainty by 1914. Carson likely had increased interest for a peaceful solution after the Curragh Mutiny, someone in another thread mentioned bringing in colonial troops should Ulster fight, which would prevent a lot of the issues of "loyal unionists" unwilling to kill each other

I can’t see a pre-WWI British government bringing in colonial troops to deal with a “British” issue. Absolutely no way Indian or African troops will be used and there could well be doubts about Dominion troops‘ “loyalty” as well.

 

[GrahamB]

This was the irony of the Ulster "Loyalists", willing to commit treason.

I would be very amused by a timeline that includes the Ulsterites 'jumping the gun' and getting themselves locked up for sedition, effectively scuttling their chances for a separate Northern Ireland.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

I would be very amused by a timeline that includes the Ulsterites 'jumping the gun' and getting themselves locked up for sedition, effectively scuttling their chances for a separate Northern Ireland.

I can’t see that being the result

 

[GrahamB]

Oh it's hardly likely, which is why it would be so amusing to witness.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Oh it's hardly likely, which is why it would be so amusing to witness.

Well, amusing for 60-odd percent of the population I suppose

 

[_12]

If India’s presidencies were divided into Dominions would the coastal dominions’ (Bombay, Madras, Bengal) navies be as large as those of the White Dominions, considering that the Germans in Tanganikiya, the French in Madagascar etc. aren’t really a threat and that Britain still controls Malaya, Aden in such a scenario? Also Dominion of the United Provinces (of Agra and Oudh) is such a clunky name compared to Uttar Pradesh, the United Provinces or Gangastan

Also Native African dominions are eventually going to form only if the Eton-educated “assimilated” Africans demand it.

What happens to the German colonies or the DEI in this scenario?

 

[Deleted member 94680]

If India’s presidencies were divided into Dominions would the coastal dominions’ (Bombay, Madras, Bengal) navies be as large as those of the White Dominions, considering that the Germans in Tanganikiya, the French in Madagascar etc. aren’t really a threat and that Britain still controls Malaya, Aden in such a scenario? Also Dominion of the United Provinces (of Agra and Oudh) is such a clunky name compared to Uttar Pradesh, the United Provinces or Gangastan

Maybe London is generous enough to keep the burden of naval security on the Royal Navy and the Indian Dominions are required to suffer having their own Navies?

Also Native African dominions are eventually going to form only if the Eton-educated “assimilated” Africans demand it.

I believe that was sort of the plan that some had, provided enough time passed for an African version of the Indian Civil Service to develop?

What happens to the German colonies or the DEI in this scenario?

They remain German or Dutch until Berlin or The Hague commence decolonisation of their own?

 

[_12]

They remain German or Dutch until Berlin or The Hague commence decolonisation of their own?

For the Dutch, dominionization of Indonesia as several countries and incorporation of Surinam, and bits of the DEI makes sense

 

[Deleted member 94680]

For the Dutch, dominionization of Indonesia as several countries and incorporation of Surinam, and bits of the DEI makes sense

Subdivision of the DEI from a map I found on the internet

I’ve always felt a Netherlands in financial difficulties might find itself surrounded by imperial vultures looking to farm off parts of their empire...

 

[_12]

Subdivision of the DEI from a map I found on the internet

I’ve always felt a Netherlands in financial difficulties might find itself surrounded by imperial vultures looking to farm off parts of their empire...

Also, the issue of Princely States supporting or opposing dominionization would be an issue

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Also, the issue of Princely States supporting or opposing dominionization would be an issue

Much the same as British India, I’d assume. I’m not too familiar with the Princes in the DEI, so I’m not 100% how pro-Dutch they were or even if their locations would allow them to survive as independent entities with, say, Dutch naval support.

The Hague might well watch New Delhi with interest and take a leaf out of the Raj’s book.