Well if B444 is going to take a break, then he has definitely deserved it after the excellent updates that he's done over the past year or so. A D3 obituary would be the perfect way to close out this saga of An Age of Miracles in my eyes as he makes his final mark in the Roman Empire. In the aftermath, we can only witness as the world paves the way for Odysseus to take the purple.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
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I mean i personally would be unsatisfied with never seeing the War of Wrath, I really love the idea of the story ending with a roman mission to the alpha centauri system which seems like a good way to leave our mighty empire
Thanks for this very useful information. Your idea behind Coahuilaceratops seems the most plausible course of events. Cabinets of curiosities were a big deal at this point in time, and some weird big bones like that would be good Mexican diplomatic gifts at the opening of talks with the Romans for alliance negotiations.
So in that case, OTL Carcharodontosaurus = TTL Tyrannosaurus and OTL Coahuilaceratops = TTL Triceratops.
I have to admit though that I’m wary of advancing paleontology too much at this point for the same reason I’m wary of doing that in archaeology. Excavation methods would be hideously sloppy and destructive by modern standards, making Schliemann look good by comparison. In their quest for the sexy big bones or the sexy palaces, I see early excavators destroying tons of irreplaceable evidence regarding anything that doesn’t fall obviously into the ‘big and exciting category’.
Vlachia: For a big Latin intervention into Vlachia to work would require the Russians standing aside. That would require some effort but not an insurmountable one. The Russians don’t have any interest in Galicia so there could be some sort of quid pro quo. The Russians stand aside for a Polish conquest of Galicia. In exchange the Germans and Poles stand aside for a Russian conquest of Finland. (Doesn’t have to be this specifically, but that’s a possible example.)
As for Vlachia and reform, the elephant in the room is that the elephant is Roman. In terms of reform, the Romans are not the solution. They’re the problem. They like this setup; that’s why they favored it. The White Palace does not like powerful rural nobility in Rhomania because they are a threat to its power base. But powerful Vlach rural nobility are absolutely no threat whatsoever to the White Palace’s power base so it doesn’t care. Roman intellectuals who are more ideologically consistent will find this all much more objectionable but they don’t represent the government or set policy. To continue the Cold War analogy, this is like the US proclaiming itself the leader of the free world while propping up brutal military dictators so long as they were anti-communist. The ideological constraints governing internal policy are not necessarily, or even often, the same constraints governing external policy.
Rhomania wants two things from Vlachia.
A) A buffer state, preferably with some military clout to provide a boost to Roman war efforts.
B) A source of cheap foodstuffs for Constantinople, as well as a captive market for Roman manufactures. So Constantinople artisans get cheap food and lots of orders for their goods. It’s an easy and effective way to keep the capital happy.
Vlachia, simply by existing, at least somewhat fulfills A, and even a dirt-poor Vlachia can still provide some troops. But to improve Vlachia’s performance of A means weakening Vlachia’s performance of B and the White Palace really doesn’t want that. The Germans completely overrunning Vlachia is a problem, but much less of one than Constantinople rising up in revolt because the city dwellers are starving and broke.
So if the peasants rose up in rebellion, or a Vlach King tried to curb the power and prosperity of the landowners, they’d have to be doing so against the Romans, not with the Romans.
Burn-out: I don’t currently plan on stopping or taking a break from writing (knock on wood, and of course reserve the right to change my mind). But the writing plus the prospect of trying to respond to all responses with some detail really was a tipping point and I needed to back off. That’s why both then and now I’m doing these broad general responses on the major topics. They’re much quicker and easier to make and I do need to expend less time and energy on this or I will really burn out.
Look to the West: To Rule in Germany
Look to the West: To Rule in Germany
The Triune advance into Lotharingia succeeded because while it faced centralized opposition, said opposition was defeatist and low in morale. In contrast, after seizing the west bank of the Rhine and pushing across the great river, the Triunes face relatively little opposition at all. The foes of western Germany that might’ve opposed them were shattered at Wennenden, and no German prince has been able to put the pieces back together again. The main issue facing the Triunes east of the Rhine in the late 1630s are logistical support and keeping discipline amongst the troops so as to not alienate the locals.
This is, somewhat paradoxically, a problem for Henri II. His desired goal is a setup similar to that imposed on Lotharingia: complete Triune control to the Rhine River with buffer satellite states on the east bank. However nature abhors a vacuum, and the vacuum of power in central Europe creates a suction effect, making it hard for the Triunes to stop even when Henri II would wish to stop. Furthermore the fragmentation of power and de-legitimization of the major power brokers who could force a comprehensive peace settlement makes it difficult to acquire a peace. With Lotharingia, Henri II needed to talk to Albrecht III and only Albrecht III. Germany is proving vastly more complicated. In retrospect, from Henri II’s point-of-view, the 1630s have done a little too good of a job in destabilizing the Holy Roman Empire.
The main power in the Holy Roman Empire is Ottokar. In 1638 he can field, for offensive purposes, an army of 25000 infantry and 6000 cavalry, backed up by a capable and skilled field artillery train. The army is well equipped and uniformed in white coats for the foot, blue coats for the light cavalry, and green coats for the heavy cavalry. This is made possible by Silesia, one of the largest centers of production for weapons, armor, and textiles in all of Christendom. Thanks in large part to Silesia, the Bohemian economy is in relatively good shape, especially compared to its neighbors. Theodor was not able to bully Ottokar into providing loans for the Wittelsbach war effort that will never be repaid so even with ransoming his army from the Romans, Ottokar still has some coin and with the Silesian economy backing him he still has credit for loans.
That army is nowhere near enough to go toe-to-toe with the Triune field armies, which combined are nearly an order-of-magnitude bigger. But while Ottokar can’t go on the offensive against the Triunes, he is well-placed to defend himself, because notably Bohemia is on the east end of the Holy Roman Empire. The Triunes might be able to logistically support a lunge at Prague, but the key phrase is ‘might be able’. While supporting the lunge, they would have to fight through the Bohemian Forest (despite the name it’s a mountain range) where Ottokar could meet the tired and overstretched Triunes with his own field army, supported by local militias and new Polish and Hungarian allies who’ve pledged to help defend Bohemia if it is invaded by an aggressor (left unspecified but everyone but the village idiot, and probably even he as well, knows it’s referring to Henri II). In short, unlike Albrecht III, Ottokar is in relatively little (although still some) danger of Henri II toppling him off his royal throne.
Toppling him off his royal throne, that is. The Imperial one is much more questionable. Ottokar’s respectable power base is entirely dependent on him being King of Bohemia. Being Holy Roman Emperor is entirely a paper crown. The Polish and Hungarian alliances are only pledged to defend the Kingdom of Bohemia, not to support his authority as Holy Roman Emperor. This is even with the King of Hungary who, as King of Austria as well, is one of the Princes of the Empire.
Ottokar’s legitimacy as Holy Roman Emperor is shaky. Yes, he was elected by the Imperial College, but Theodor, while insane, is very much alive, and so long as he breathes there is a question mark over Ottokar’s authority. Furthermore, despite Bohemia’s long association with the Empire, Ottokar is definitely a Bohemian (the name is a clue), and that is something that is starting to bother the German princes. After being butchered by Greeks and threatened by more foreigners in the form of Triunes and Scandinavians, said princes aren’t enamored with an overlord who seems somewhat foreign himself.
Despite this, the title of Holy Roman Emperor means a great deal to Ottokar. He did not take the title to see it turn to ash. For that reason he does not wish to sign over vast swaths to Triune control. It would diminish what he has gained. Furthermore to give up so much would be a devastating blow to his legitimacy and possibly cost him the Imperial crown, which he finds unacceptable.
That is the source of the impasse. Ottokar is willing to concede the west bank of the Rhine; that is clearly indefensible and he has to give up something. But beyond that he is not willing to go. That is not good enough for Henri. He has no interest in direct control of German lands east of the Rhine, but he wants to set up a series of vassal states (compositions and extents undetermined) to guard his eastern frontier. In addition, there is the question of compensatory lands for the west-side princes east of the Rhine. Henri wants to have a say in the determination, while Ottokar wants to decide the question himself in consultation with the appropriate princes, no Triunes present.
Triune armies crossing the Rhine fan out across the countryside, securing it. Their progress is slow to ensure that logistics hold up and for the same reason the troops are spread out, garrisoning key points. Ottokar doesn’t attack them for fear of making the war hot, while the few locals who do resist are quickly swept aside. Ottokar’s hopes are that the extended occupation will drain Henri’s resources and make him more conciliatory. Henri meanwhile takes the opportunity to do some reorganizing of the lands his soldiers occupy while the dispossessed princes put pressure on Ottokar to do something, either with the pen or the sword. By early 1639 the impasse has not yet broken, but with the victory over Lotharingia it seems almost certain that Ottokar will have to give way first. He lacks the resources for another, more active strategy.
Germany is in little position to help. The economy is in tatters, with vast loans paid to the Wittelsbachs that will never be repaid. The lack of capital stalls commerce, throwing artisans out of work through lack of paying customers. Getting new loans are impossible while efforts to raise taxes are political slug-fests. Budget shortfalls need to be made good but raising taxes on already struggling businesses hardly helps. Furthermore there are rows about the issue of tax exemptions, since many groups are exempt or pay reduced dues on various taxes, increasing the burden on everyone else. Naturally those with entrenched interests are not willing to give them up for the common good. The smaller states, with the exception of the big Free Cities, are the most affected, but practically all of the princely states suffer these issues to some extent.
The most movement is in the north, where the aggressor against the Holy Roman Empire is Peter II of Scandinavia, brother-in-law to Henri II (Peter is married to Henri’s sister) and a decidedly less formidable opponent. While Peter has overrun Schleswig-Holstein and some more territory further south, the stubborn resistance of the great cities of Hamburg, Bremen, and Lubeck, backed by the Pomeranians, has stalled further advance.
By 1638 some of the economic crises in the larger states of eastern Germany have declined a bit, helped by 1637 being a decent harvest. Thus Ottokar is prepared to be bolder. A Bohemian army, reinforced by contingents from Saxony (where Ottokar is now Duke), Brandenburg, and Pomerania, attack the Scandinavians at their siege of Bremen. The Scandinavians are utterly routed and sent flying back into Holstein.
Further pursuit is impossible because word then arrives that Henri II, in response to the defeat of Peter II, has sent an army to attack Bremen. The Bohemians wheel back south and the two armies face off against each other for a fortnight before the Triunes withdraw. Henri didn’t want a costly battle, even if it was a victory, just to draw away the Bohemians. At the same time Triune forces march into Wurzburg and western Bavaria. They withdraw after a few weeks, extracting contributions from the countryside. These were not offensives, just demonstrations, but Ottokar catches the point. Although he has the strength to pummel the Scandinavians, he can’t actually do so without the Triunes coming and sideswiping him.
Despite this, Ottokar does manage to score another win against the Scandinavians, sponsoring and supplying a revolt of the Dithmarschen. They successfully expel the Scandinavian occupiers and re-establish their peasant republic in their North Sea marsh homeland, which had been destroyed by the Scandinavians (after multiple failed attempts) in 1605. His patronage of the Dithmarschen is an interesting note at this time, especially since the 1638 campaign against the Scandinavians deliberately involves Ottokar avoiding doing anything about the Ravens’ Rebellion.
This is not because he has sympathy for peasant uprisings. Rare would be the monarch that did. However the Dithmarschen have history and precedent behind them. The Ravens’ Rebellion doesn’t have that, but it is a hornet’s nest. As Ottokar crudely puts it “let Henri deal with a group of birds that is called a murder and get bit in the cock for his trouble. I could use the entertainment.”
Germany and getting ravaged in the early 1600s, name a more iconic duo.
Anyway, it sure seems like in the short to medium term the center of gravity in Germany is going to shift east. Bohemia and the lands to the north are practically the only areas that haven't been repeatedly punched in the dick by either the Romans, Triunes, or Scandinavians, and the Baltic cities are actually in a position to trade with someone, with Scandinavia and Poland still untouched and the Russian states not in too terrible a condition.
This also seems like an opportunity for centralization in Germany. The noble houses in Germany are getting ravaged by this war. If Ottokar and his successors as Holy Roman Emperor are going to reclaim any semblance of control they're likely going to have to rebuild the governmental infrastructure from the ground up. They might even go full Roman!
Anyway, it sure seems like in the short to medium term the center of gravity in Germany is going to shift east. Bohemia and the lands to the north are practically the only areas that haven't been repeatedly punched in the dick by either the Romans, Triunes, or Scandinavians, and the Baltic cities are actually in a position to trade with someone, with Scandinavia and Poland still untouched and the Russian states not in too terrible a condition.
This also seems like an opportunity for centralization in Germany. The noble houses in Germany are getting ravaged by this war. If Ottokar and his successors as Holy Roman Emperor are going to reclaim any semblance of control they're likely going to have to rebuild the governmental infrastructure from the ground up. They might even go full Roman!
I could see the Bahariya Formation be significantly more damaged by the more primitive methods of Roman/Egyptian excavators who might throw away minor plant life or fauna in favor of large dinosaurs like sauropods/theropods, even though a modern scientist would gag at the work of their ancestors.
Ironically American formations might end up being better cared for thanks to the earlier developments of paleontology and slower colonization, so that might be an interesting divergence compared to OTL.
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Figured that the Romans would be the main opposition to Vlachian emancipation, although I still believe that if Vlachia collapses through revolution or civil war because of serfdom, they will inevitably have to change it since there wouldn't be any excuse as to what is to blame for that predicament. Still, the Romans wouldn't preemptively change existing policy because of how much Vlachian serfdom benefits Constantinople.
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So a Czech is in control of the HRE? It definitely doesn't sit well with the German princes and the rest of the nobility but considering how the Great Latin War decimated the Wittelsbachs and the majority of the German elite, Ottokar is the strongest and most capable of defending the HRE against the Triunes, who are still the greatest threat to the Holy Roman Empire, so no surprise there.
I'll be interested in seeing how Ottokar performs as the Kaiser, mainly because he has a vested interest in keeping what's left of the HRE together and work towards centralization of Germany itself since the decentralized nature of the HRE is why the Germans lost the Rhineland during the Triune invasion. Interestingly, the power base is going to be in Prague and the rest of Czechia, so I could see the Czechs becoming more Germanized assuming that Bohemia remains the core part of the German demesne alongside Silesia and Saxony.
Also, Theodor is alive?! I thought he kicked the bucket once he went mad in the streets of Apulia or something like that. Ottokar might have to deal with him if he ever wants full control over the HRE.
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I'm not certain I agree with this analysis. It's arguably too shortsighted on the part of the White Palace. To stay in the cold war analysis, yes the US did hold its nose and supported the colonels regime when they thought they were the only practical alternative in Greece, but this did not stop them from both preffering a pro-US democratic government (and helping with forming a stable one like the support they gave behind the scenes for unifying the Greek centre parties in the late 1950s) or for that matter understanding afterwards it was shooting itself in the foot. If the peasants rose up, or the king was instituting "Roman style" reforms, I would expect the White palace to be openly and directly supporting them and facing very serious domestic trouble (all the way up to riots/revolt) if it did the opposite.
I agree with you, its counter productive for the white palace to keep the Vlachian kingdom itself too destabilised. Isn't stability for its allies, client state and borders what they've always strive for? Making their closest and earnest ally suffer is tantamount to stupidity. One that I can't believe the Romans would do.
I think the problem with it all is that for Rome an ideal Vlach state; one that is both wealthy and urbanized capable of fielding a decent sized army and also a state capable of providing Rome with bulk cheap foodstuffs; is mutually exclusive. The reason that Vlachia can provide the mass foodstuffs is because it is rural and agrarian but at the same time a rural agrarian state with only one major customer for its surplus is going to be a poor state. A Vlachia that urbanizes and breaks up the large landowners for small freeehold farms is also a Vlachia that will have a far smaller surplus of food to sell since they will be consuming that surplus themselves.
In regards to the army, Roma has just proven to itself that it alone can put upwards of 300,000 men under arms between field armies and fortress troops with its despotates capable of fielding another 60,000. Whether Vlachia can provide 15,000 soldiers or 35,000 soldiers on top of this is frankly not going to matter a whole lot one way or the other. So I see a very plausible policy being to prioritize Vlachia as a food production centre over it being anything else.
Is it possible that this policy isn't the ideal long term solution? Of course it is; but Rome hasn't been gifted with foresight so instead they see a situation that works well for them right now so why rock the boat more than they already have. Ideally Rome would invest in making its own agriculture more efficient so it has to import less and it would have more money to invest in Vlachia building it up as a powerful medium sized buffer state on par with Arles or at least Poland. But with that plan comes risk that it doesn't go right. It seems even ITTL governments are capable of going with the devil they know over the devil the don't.
There is also risk in building up Vlachia too much. A prosperous and urban Vlachia with a homegrown educated elite would be more prone to seek out it's own path and escape from the shadow of Rome regardless of their shared history. Nations don't have friends only interests; one need look no further than Sicily to see that and look at how Hungary is already looking to distance itself from Constantinople as soon as the ink was dry on the Treaty of Belgrade. One thing about a weak Vlachia is that it won't ever have the power to break from Rome without a powerful backer which in this case would be Germany or Russia; and if that happens I'm sure the War Department is happy that Roman armies will be able to rapidly advance into the country to take key positions with the Vlachs putting up minimal resistance.
I wonder if the relationship between Romania and Vlachia could be best summarized as a parallel between the U.S. and the states of Central America such as Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador (i.e. the Banana Republics), but replace bananas with wheat. A stronger state warps another country's economy and politics towards its own interests, leading to a sharp decrease in the quality of life for its inhabitants due to the huge wealth disparity between the rich landowners and the poor, which seems to fit the bill when it comes to Vlachia.
JSC's post succinctly explains my current thoughts on the subject matter but I'd like to add that with the Little Ice Age and the Roman depression probably puts even more pressure on Romania to import more wheat from other regions of the Empire like Egypt, Scythia, and Vlachia since the core part of the Empire is seeing poorer harvests. The Vlachs are especially affected due to proximity and their primary role in feeding Constantinople itself. As a result, I tend to think that Romania has become too accustomed to the status quo because it desperately needs the grain produced to provide for the people in Constantinople (either in the market or through the grain dole, although the latter is unlikely to be implemented), otherwise the Sideroi could have a huge problem quelling food riots, which is far more debilitating to the central government than a Vlachian rebellion that they can easily quell as B444 said.
With no immediate threat from the HRE, Hungary, or Poland, the Romans wouldn't be as interested in major reforms for Vlachia since investing in any kind of major reform with the Vlachian King or Diet militarily or economically to strengthen it would be expensive and destabilizing, two things that Romania cannot afford during a depression and an upcoming war with the Ottomans.
I still believe that they would be open to rescinding serfdom, although it will occur only once the dust has settled and they learn that their current approach has failed them. I just can't see them doing this sort of reform preemptively when they benefit so much from the status quo and changing it would only lead to further chaos in the Empire at this very moment.
Looking back on previous posts, it seems that the Roman Empire hasn't adopted a lot of the Terranovan crops as late as 1587, as shown from this previous post from way back:
JSC's post succinctly explains my current thoughts on the subject matter but I'd like to add that with the Little Ice Age and the Roman depression probably puts even more pressure on Romania to import more wheat from other regions of the Empire like Egypt, Scythia, and Vlachia since the core part of the Empire is seeing poorer harvests. The Vlachs are especially affected due to proximity and their primary role in feeding Constantinople itself. As a result, I tend to think that Romania has become too accustomed to the status quo because it desperately needs the grain produced to provide for the people in Constantinople (either in the market or through the grain dole, although the latter is unlikely to be implemented), otherwise the Sideroi could have a huge problem quelling food riots, which is far more debilitating to the central government than a Vlachian rebellion that they can easily quell as B444 said.
With no immediate threat from the HRE, Hungary, or Poland, the Romans wouldn't be as interested in major reforms for Vlachia since investing in any kind of major reform with the Vlachian King or Diet militarily or economically to strengthen it would be expensive and destabilizing, two things that Romania cannot afford during a depression and an upcoming war with the Ottomans.
I still believe that they would be open to rescinding serfdom, although it will occur only once the dust has settled and they learn that their current approach has failed them. I just can't see them doing this sort of reform preemptively when they benefit so much from the status quo and changing it would only lead to further chaos in the Empire at this very moment.
Looking back on previous posts, it seems that the Roman Empire hasn't adopted a lot of the Terranovan crops as late as 1587, as shown from this previous post from way back:
While it's the 1630s and decades have passed, I doubt they could've adopted crops such as maize and potatoes this quickly since it took OTL Europeans centuries before they became staples (My mistake to assume that Vlachia even grew maize at this point). This does mean that food security and agricultural output is lower than what could theoretically be possible contemporaneously. Perhaps the current depression and the collapse of Vlachian serfdom could be the catalyst towards further agricultural development and the adoption of potatoes or maize as staple crops in the Empire? (They might've adopted them already or it could be averted, so who knows what will happen...)
Doesn't the Ravens' Rebellion start in Bavaria? The Triunes must be pushing in deep if it's causing him issues rather than Ottokar.
If i am not mistaken in some update a while ago it is mentioned that potatoes were introduced in the same time as the war
Times must be very tough indeed for the Wittelsbachs. It has been four years since Wennenden and three years since the Treaty of Buda which should be enough time for the Bavarians to at least try and recover, especially if the 1637 harvest is good there as well. The Triunes made it all the way into Bavaria unopposed - telling me that the Wittelsbachs still haven't been able to muster enough strength to send an army into the field to oppose them. Between Thessaloniki, Wennenden/Ulm, and the Raven's Rebellion Bavaria must be a shitshow right now.
I'm pulling for Elizabeth but things don't look good at all for her right now or in the near future.
I'm pulling for Elizabeth but things don't look good at all for her right now or in the near future.
Orthodox Christmas was two weeks ago thank you very much. That the Russians are failing to properly follow Constantinople after a century and as still old-calendarists is their error.
Oh shoot whoopsOrthodox Christmas was two weeks ago thank you very much. That the Russians are failing to properly follow Constantinople after a century and as still old-calendarists is their error.
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