An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Cryostorm]

The Romans wouldn't allow a Vlachian royal to overthrow the nobles at all, as they were the ones that brought Vlachia into this situation in the first place (i.e. serfdom) through their agreement with the nobility. Constantinople depends too much on Vlachian grain and their willingness to buy Roman goods for them to just suddenly end the current status quo. They would be the opposition for any reformist faction in my eyes.

If a Vlachian noble/king wanted to change the current situation in his country and end serfdom, he would have to align with the Latins, since their support would allow them to combat Roman and Russian interests. Of course, that is obviously a huge problem for Romania or Russia, one that will have to be dealt swiftly if Constantinople continues to benefit from the exploitation of the Vlachian people.

Except the Rhomans aren't exactly fans of the current Vlachian serfdom either, it was put in place primarily to stop Vlachian peasants from leaving and setting up shop in Rhomania and Russia to make farms there. Not to mention the imperial family isn't known for being all that understanding of the plight of the poor rural nobility. Currently it doesn't benefit Rhomania to get involved since that pretty much means declaring war on a long time ally but if the situation ever presented itself I think Rhomania wouldn't mind, especially if it meant getting the chance of putting the king under a more solid despotate-like agreement than the current one and gain the people's support.

 

[Denliner]

Except the Rhomans aren't exactly fans of the current Vlachian serfdom either, it was put in place primarily to stop Vlachian peasants from leaving and setting up shop in Rhomania and Russia to make farms there. Not to mention the imperial family isn't known for being all that understanding of the plight of the poor rural nobility. Currently it doesn't benefit Rhomania to get involved since that pretty much means declaring war on a long time ally but if the situation ever presented itself I think Rhomania wouldn't mind, especially if it meant getting the chance of putting the king under a more solid despotate-like agreement than the current one and gain the people's support.

Yeah, I can get behind this kind of settlement between the Romans and the Vlachian nobility in the case a Latin-aligned Vlach noble/king managed to stir the peasantry and other nobles against Romania. The revolution would prove that the current system of serfdom is extremely unpopular for the Vlachians and even some of the Roman citizenry, although I still don't see them ending the current status quo beforehand because of how beneficial it is for Romania to continue it. They'll realize their mistakes by hindsight but then it would already be too late.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Yeah, I can get behind this kind of settlement between the Romans and the Vlachian nobility in the case a Latin-aligned Vlach noble/king managed to stir the peasantry and other nobles against Romania. The revolution would prove that the current system of serfdom is extremely unpopular for the Vlachians and even some of the Roman citizenry, although I still don't see them ending the current status quo beforehand because of how beneficial it is for Romania to continue it. They'll realize their mistakes by hindsight but then it would already be too late.

If you were a Vlachian King how would change the situation to improve the life quality of rural vlachians? At the same time not falling to the latin sphere and still being on the Roman sphere?

 

[HanEmpire]

Even if serfdom is wretched, the Vlachs have little choice. Leaving aside the fact that aligning against Constantinople is outright suicidal, their land has no economic prospect outside of feeding the Romans. Their lands produce nothing of note outside of food, and they're full of mountainous on all sides except for the Scythian Frontier and the Danube. The Scythians are the biggest breadbasket around, and the only other potential customers are Poles (far, food exporter to the West), Hungarians (across mountains, have Pannonnian plains), or Serbs (across mountains and hills, too poor). They can't enter any markets outside the bulk food shipments because they have low education rates and no spare manpower to experiment with alternative revenue generation without breaking the Roman grain trade contracts or just getting outcompeted. Until Romania can undergo an Agricultural Revolution, the peasants must be tied to the land.

 

[Denliner]

If you were a Vlachian King how would change the situation to improve the life quality of rural vlachians?

I'm not entirely sure on what the exact solution is for Vlachia, but iirc, one of the current problems with Vlachia from The House of Iron: Chips and Cheese is that Vlachs were emigrating to Romania in huge numbers, which cuts into the landowner elite that feeds the majority of Constantinople through their grain exports. Not to mention these large landowners themselves were buying up land from the lower classes, leaving them landless and poor, forcing them to migrate to Romania in the first place. Additionally, Roman imports of manufactured goods without any tariffs basically put many Vlach artisans out of a job since anything out of Romania will vastly exceed Vlach products in quality and price. On top of the low population figures, a poor economy, and low social mobility (probably nonexistent because of serfdom), Vlachia in the 1630s/1640s sounds like a pretty terrible place to live.

The Vlachian King or the Diet would have to solve the majority of these problems if Vlachia is going to prosper again as a state comparable to the Despotate of Sicily or Egypt in development, which is difficult when trying to enact land reform or tariffs is something that is against Roman interests in the first place (or at least the landowning elites of the Diet).

Seems like political revolution is inevitable given the extreme disparity between the peasantry/serfs and the landowners and just the overall poverty of the country (further compounded with the Little Ice Age and the Roman depression).

They need an Agricultural Revolution before anything can change.

Trying to implement an Agricultural Revolution through new technology or new foodstuffs would be exceptionally difficult in a place where landowning elites are reliant on serfs and people aren't used to complicated machinery or crops like maize, potatoes, amaranth, and etc. (Assuming Terranovan crops even made it to Vlachia in the first place).

Plus anything that Vlachia does in terms of agricultural development, Sicily, Romania, Scythia, and Egypt can do it far better than them, further compounding such issues.
Vlachia can't do this kind of reform alone, they'd need a large amount of Roman cooperation (Subsidies and expertise from Roman farmers/scientists), and I don't know if Constantinople is willing to put in the money unless they're pushed towards that kind of settlement.

 

[Sphenodon]

The dinosaur bit was originally supposed to just be some silliness that explained having them in A New and Ancient World, a rationale that became defunct when that died.

At the time I didn’t realize that T-Rex and Triceratops were indigenous to North America, and mainly the Great Plains and American West area, which makes it hard to explain how fossils of them got all the way to Constantinople. So OTL Carcharodontosaurus may be TTL Tyrannosaur to resolve that issue. Doesn’t explain Triceratops but that I’m willing to just handwave because, damnit, I think I’ve earned the right to handwave a few things.

A discussion of prehistoric life! My time has come!

It would be a bit hard to justify big ceratopsian fossils making their way to Constantinople by this point, as they were not only found exclusively in western America (which was connected by land to eastern Asia in the Cretaceous, with ceratopsians evolving there and radiating throughout the region; the eastern half of America was a separate continent, Laramidia, during this time period, separated from the west by the Western Interior Seaway) but also really big. This is especially the case for the skulls, which for bigger ceratopsians can weigh up to half a ton in their fossilized states. One of the largest species, Coahuilaceratops, is known from Mexico though - perhaps a skull or a skeleton from one of them could be a gift from a Mexican emperor to Odysseus as a means of building rapport with the naturalist emperor?

On the topic of Carcharodontosaurus and Spinosaurus (and the desire for big dinosaurs), I'm reminded of the fact that one of the best Early Cretaceous fossil sites known is found in Egypt: the Bahariya Formation, found in the eponymous depression fairly near to the city of Oxyrhynchos. The site preserves what was at the time a delta-like environment, and is famous for its gigantic freshwater and saltwater fish (upon which Spinosaurus fed) as well as one of the largest sauropods known, Paralititan (upon which Carcharodontosaurus fed). The formation was discovered in an expedition by Ernst Stromer (most of whose initial findings, such as the Spinosaurus holotype, were sadly destroyed by WWII) with fairly little preliminary digging, so I can certainly see it being found some centuries earlier if we assume Ody would be on the lookout for reports of remarkable bones across the empire. If you're looking for even more big fossil beasts, the famous "Valley of the Whales" - highlighting many of the earliest stages of whale evolution, including the massive serpentine Basilosaurus - is also found in Egypt, near Fayoum.

Perhaps all of this adventuring in Egypt would color his opinions towards the region and its history?

 

[HanEmpire]

Trying to implement an Agricultural Revolution through new technology or new foodstuffs would be exceptionally difficult in a place where landowning elites are reliant on serfs and people aren't used to complicated machinery or crops like maize, potatoes, amaranth, and etc. (Assuming Terranovan crops even made it to Vlachia in the first place).

Plus anything that Vlachia does in terms of agricultural development, Sicily, Romania, Scythia, and Egypt can do it far better than them, further compounding such issues.
Vlachia can't do this kind of reform alone, they'd need a large amount of Roman cooperation (Subsidies and expertise from Roman farmers/scientists), and I don't know if Constantinople is willing to put in the money unless they're pushed towards that kind of settlement.

If the Hungarian alliance breaks down or if the Poles get too strong or something, then Constantinople will have a vested interest in making sure that Vlachia can field a modern army on its own without Roman subsidies so that the northern front can be shielded. Scholarships and mechanization subsidies are cheap compared to armies. Plus if the Vlachian landlords don't play ball and take up Roman-style Paternalistic Conservatism and give up power, then the Office of Barbarians will just fuel Vlachian populism.

 

[Stark]

Thank you very much for your kind words. I really appreciate them right now. And yes, it has been exhausting.
Just going to touch very briefly on geopolitics, because honestly I’m rather burned out and tired of talking about it and its implications and ramifications. I don’t have any plans for any big wars between a revived HRE/Germany and the Romans, but that is because the Romans, for different reasons, disengaged from central Europe such as by selling back Salzburg. Further tension will likely come through following von Nimitz’s ‘Northern Fringe’ strategy. Focus on flipping Hungary. Back a Polish play to take back Vlach Galicia (such an eyesore on the map). Perhaps support a revolution in Vlachia aimed at overthrowing the Roman-allied landowners. So more like 18th century version of the Cold War (with potential hot fighting via proxies) than WW2.

That sound like a great fun, I'm looking forward to it. Great Game of central Europe

I'm sorry if our speculation is stressing you out. Perhaps that the reason many writers don't read forums/speculations about their work, it just gets discussed to death. But I suppose it's better to have too many than too few comments

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

I'm not entirely sure on what the exact solution is for Vlachia, but iirc, one of the current problems with Vlachia from The House of Iron: Chips and Cheese is that Vlachs were emigrating to Romania in huge numbers, which cuts into the landowner elite that feeds the majority of Constantinople through their grain exports. Not to mention these large landowners themselves were buying up land from the lower classes, leaving them landless and poor, forcing them to migrate to Romania in the first place. Additionally, Roman imports of manufactured goods without any tariffs basically put many Vlach artisans out of a job since anything out of Romania will vastly exceed Vlach products in quality and price. On top of the low population figures, a poor economy, and low social mobility (probably nonexistent because of serfdom), Vlachia in the 1630s/1640s sounds like a pretty terrible place to live.

The Vlachian King or the Diet would have to solve the majority of these problems if Vlachia is going to prosper again as a state comparable to the Despotate of Sicily or Egypt in development, which is difficult when trying to enact land reform or tariffs is something that is against Roman interests in the first place (or at least the landowning elites of the Diet).

Seems like political revolution is inevitable given the extreme disparity between the peasantry/serfs and the landowners and just the overall poverty of the country (further compounded with the Little Ice Age and the Roman depression).


Trying to implement an Agricultural Revolution through new technology or new foodstuffs would be exceptionally difficult in a place where landowning elites are reliant on serfs and people aren't used to complicated machinery or crops like maize, potatoes, amaranth, and etc. (Assuming Terranovan crops even made it to Vlachia in the first place).

Plus anything that Vlachia does in terms of agricultural development, Sicily, Romania, Scythia, and Egypt can do it far better than them, further compounding such issues.
Vlachia can't do this kind of reform alone, they'd need a large amount of Roman cooperation (Subsidies and expertise from Roman farmers/scientists), and I don't know if Constantinople is willing to put in the money unless they're pushed towards that kind of settlement.

Constantinople would probably help if the king and the Vlachian people have the will to actually fix their problem. As sentiments change in Vlachia, so to can happen in Constantinople. The Romans would feel unease and guilty at what has transpire to their closest ally and earnest friend on the balkans.

The only problem is they need to thwart the revolution before it completely envelops their allies. They can't allow the Latins to have an upperhand in any shape or form. Otherwise another war will occur potentially one that is like our ww1 scenario. How to save both Vlachia and your interest in defense against the Latins is one that is im very curious how to answer.

 

[Pergington]

Constantinople would probably help if the king and the Vlachian people have the will to actually fix their problem. As sentiments change in Vlachia, so to can happen in Constantinople. The Romans would feel unease and guilty at what has transpire to their closest ally and earnest friend on the balkans.

The only problem is they need to thwart the revolution before it completely envelops their allies. They can't allow the Latins to have an upperhand in any shape or form. Otherwise another war will occur potentially one that is like our ww1 scenario. How to save both Vlachia and your interest in defense against the Latins is one that is im very curious how to answer.

I would say the only way to help Vlachia is to start undergoing some serious land reforms. That would be the first step in helping although this could receive push back from the nobility.

 

[Sceonn]

Maybe a reverse immigration to Vlachia from Rhomania? Either Romanized Vlachs who'd immigrated to Rhomania or Rhomanians themselves can create a Burgher/Mercantile class in the nation and lead a more controlled revolution.

 

[Denliner]

Constantinople would probably help if the king and the Vlachian people have the will to actually fix their problem. As sentiments change in Vlachia, so to can happen in Constantinople. The Romans would feel unease and guilty at what has transpire to their closest ally and earnest friend on the balkans.

The only problem is they need to thwart the revolution before it completely envelops their allies. They can't allow the Latins to have an upperhand in any shape or form. Otherwise another war will occur potentially one that is like our ww1 scenario. How to save both Vlachia and your interest in defense against the Latins is one that is im very curious how to answer.

As I said before, I don't think Odysseus or anyone in the Office of Barbarians will have the hindsight to notice how Vlachia's weakness militarily and economically poses a serious security risk to Romania as a whole, being focused on the Ottomans and the rest of Asia. While it's obviously a flaw, it makes sense that they wouldn't care as much about putting Vlachia on their radar when they've withdrawn from Latin affairs in Europe while the current status quo has continued to work so far, despite some Romans not liking the serfdom placed on Vlachia and the Vlachs themselves absolutely despising their predicament. It's something that the Germans are clear to exploit given how von Nimitz's work highlights this.

Any help done towards the Vlachs, in my eyes, has to be a reactionary response to whatever stuff goes down between Vlachia and the Latins in the case where the Romans crush the anti-Roman rebellion or worse, an all-out war with the Latins again over their allies in somewhere like Galicia. Luckily, the Romans probably won't make the same mistake again trying to enforce such a terrible policy on their ally, similar to how they've learned their lessons from the Italian Affair and the Despotate of Sicily. Vlachia could be a prosperous realm, if the Romans put in the money and effort to modernize the country from the ground up with the Vlachian King/Diet (They most likely will given how important it is to strengthen Vlachia militarily and economically against the Latins).

Maybe a reverse immigration to Vlachia from Rhomania? Either Romanized Vlachs who'd immigrated to Rhomania or Rhomanians themselves can create a Burgher/Mercantile class in the nation and lead a more controlled revolution.

If the Romans have been keeping their census, then Romanized Vlachs seems most likely. Romans aren't going to immigrate into a country that's far poorer than basically any other region in the Empire.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Regarding the Vlachs, there is potentially a smarter idea - one that doesn't cost the Romans much of anything, but if played well could firmly move the Vlach people onto their side. First of all they need someone to effectively act on behalf of the Vlach Community in Rhomania, as much to ensure that community is understood and to understand them. It isn't unreasonable that some may well send money home, or encourage others to join them. It would serve the Romans well to effectively prop up some of the families and merchants in that community to tie them to the Romans, but also to know who is worth favouring with contracts with the Vlachs in future. In much the same way that the Italians were a conduit between the Romans and the West, it could work well to have the Romano-Vlachs (for a lack of a better shorthand) perform a similar role, centred on the Danube and Constantinople/Major Roman cities.

There is almost certainly an organic community that is tied, but not necessarily supportive of the Roman Empire - some avenue to build that relationship would do them good and allow the Romans to take control of what is currently a very passive process - and considering that the Romans could use good Orthodox Vlachs in many places of the Empire, it could build a web across the Roman world, and even as far as RitE if there are enough fortune seekers.

This policy doesn't exclusively have to hold for the Vlachs either, something similar for the Serbians, Hungarians, Sicilians and Egyptians would also be sound, but I can see the biggest benefits for the Vlachs, especially in terms of fortune-seekers. It'd be a nice turn for the Romans to have Vlach, Hungarian and Serbian merchantmen turning up out east to make their fortunes and oust the Lothringians, and that channel feeding into their allies could well lead to a balancing between the Imperial heartland and the satellite allies.

 

[Cryostorm]

Regarding the Vlachs, there is potentially a smarter idea - one that doesn't cost the Romans much of anything, but if played well could firmly move the Vlach people onto their side. First of all they need someone to effectively act on behalf of the Vlach Community in Rhomania, as much to ensure that community is understood and to understand them. It isn't unreasonable that some may well send money home, or encourage others to join them. It would serve the Romans well to effectively prop up some of the families and merchants in that community to tie them to the Romans, but also to know who is worth favouring with contracts with the Vlachs in future. In much the same way that the Italians were a conduit between the Romans and the West, it could work well to have the Romano-Vlachs (for a lack of a better shorthand) perform a similar role, centred on the Danube and Constantinople/Major Roman cities.

There is almost certainly an organic community that is tied, but not necessarily supportive of the Roman Empire - some avenue to build that relationship would do them good and allow the Romans to take control of what is currently a very passive process - and considering that the Romans could use good Orthodox Vlachs in many places of the Empire, it could build a web across the Roman world, and even as far as RitE if there are enough fortune seekers.

This policy doesn't exclusively have to hold for the Vlachs either, something similar for the Serbians, Hungarians, Sicilians and Egyptians would also be sound, but I can see the biggest benefits for the Vlachs, especially in terms of fortune-seekers. It'd be a nice turn for the Romans to have Vlach, Hungarian and Serbian merchantmen turning up out east to make their fortunes and oust the Lothringians, and that channel feeding into their allies could well lead to a balancing between the Imperial heartland and the satellite allies.

That's an excellent idea to grow the European population of RITE while keeping the Greek/Armenian population available for repopulating the frontier.

 

[emperor joe]

Happy new year everyone

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Regarding the Vlachs, there is potentially a smarter idea - one that doesn't cost the Romans much of anything, but if played well could firmly move the Vlach people onto their side. First of all they need someone to effectively act on behalf of the Vlach Community in Rhomania, as much to ensure that community is understood and to understand them. It isn't unreasonable that some may well send money home, or encourage others to join them. It would serve the Romans well to effectively prop up some of the families and merchants in that community to tie them to the Romans, but also to know who is worth favouring with contracts with the Vlachs in future. In much the same way that the Italians were a conduit between the Romans and the West, it could work well to have the Romano-Vlachs (for a lack of a better shorthand) perform a similar role, centred on the Danube and Constantinople/Major Roman cities.

There is almost certainly an organic community that is tied, but not necessarily supportive of the Roman Empire - some avenue to build that relationship would do them good and allow the Romans to take control of what is currently a very passive process - and considering that the Romans could use good Orthodox Vlachs in many places of the Empire, it could build a web across the Roman world, and even as far as RitE if there are enough fortune seekers.

This policy doesn't exclusively have to hold for the Vlachs either, something similar for the Serbians, Hungarians, Sicilians and Egyptians would also be sound, but I can see the biggest benefits for the Vlachs, especially in terms of fortune-seekers. It'd be a nice turn for the Romans to have Vlach, Hungarian and Serbian merchantmen turning up out east to make their fortunes and oust the Lothringians, and that channel feeding into their allies could well lead to a balancing between the Imperial heartland and the satellite allies.

Huh feels like how my people who work abroad give money back to the country for their families.

 

[Pergington]

On the subject, Im curious on what is going to trigger the Russian unification considering the principalities are still very disunited With only a king with nominal authority.

 

[Arrix85]

On the subject, Im curious on what is going to trigger the Russian unification considering the principalities are still very disunited With only a king with nominal authority.

I probably missed something.... what king? the Khazar one? I thought he only ruled over his own kingdom.

 

[Cryostorm]

I probably missed something.... what king? the Khazar one? I thought he only ruled over his own kingdom.

Yeah, as far as I am aware the High King of Russia has been vacant since the sundering.

 

[Frame]

I'm sorry you're feeling burnout @Basileus444 I know you don't need my or any fans permission to take a break but I totally support you taking one to ensure you don't stop writing this tl perminantly. I too wanna see space Romans goshdangit and I'm willing to wait as long as it takes to get there. Thank you for putting your heart in soul into this tl it's made a huge difference in my life and I'm sure it has to many others as well