Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

Wait, isn't anatolia ruled by Hellenic Bataids? I don't think is impossible to restore the Mausoleum for prestige, or is just me don't wanting ITL world to lose such wonders

Anatolia is ruled by the Bataids yes, however, that doesn't mean that the Mausoleum survives in one piece or is even recognizable enough for the Bataids for restore it since it was located in a rather isolated town compared to Alexandria. I think it would be more likely for them to repurpose the stones as building material for a new castle like what the Crusaders did OTL, although they could also just leave the stones and the foundation as it was, which would make for a good future archaeology site.

Not like the Bataids are in desperate need to rebuild such wonders anyways for prestige. They own Constantinople with much of the old Roman buildings most likely intact like the Great Palaces, the Hippodrome, the Forum, and etc. since the 1204 Sack of Constantinople was averted. They could have even restored the Parthenon as a mosque while the House of Wisdom remains the crown jewel of the Islamic World. One old mausoleum from a long dead man probably isn't on their minds compared to the Lighthouse which both had significant practical and cultural value for the Harabids.

agree the Phare of Alexandria being rebuild is more likely than the mausoleum . The best case cenario for the mausoleum is probably to be forgotten for some time until rediscovery with the stones and foundation still here to "modern time" which are supposed to be coming earlier than OTL and more advanced so people have the interest and ressource to rebuild it in some ways . Also I just wen quickly to the wiki but the date given to the destruction of the Tower is more around 1303 from where the 1375 date come from ?

Harabids have been a declinning dynasty look at the posts on them they have been losing land the entire time they became decadent quickly. They were second thoughts bataids easily defeated when they went to war against the abbasids. Nothing indicates they were just as powerful. Literally only one post shows them doing good their first.

Mind you the reconstruction could be a political move to regain illusion of strength and grander to both home and the exterior

 

[Denliner]

agree the Phare of Alexandria being rebuild is more likely than the mausoleum . The best case cenario for the mausoleum is probably to be forgotten for some time until rediscovery with the stones and foundation still here to "modern time" which are supposed to be coming earlier than OTL and more advanced so people have the interest and ressource to rebuild it in some ways . Also I just wen quickly to the wiki but the date given to the destruction of the Tower is more around 1303 from where the 1375 date come from ?

I think that a modern Rhomania could certainly restore the Mausoleum given enough time. We've seen this type of restoration happen to places like Iraq and their attempts at rebuilding old Nineveh and Babylon. It would certainly be a lot more accurate of a restoration than the Parthenon if it was converted to a mosque.

Also apologies for the wrong dates, as it seems the earthquakes happened by around 1303-1323 which caused the Lighthouse to be destroyed. An earlier destruction date does benefit the Harabids though in their reconstruction efforts since the Bataids are weaker and the Eastern Med is probably more peaceful at that time than in 1460-1490.
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Sidenote, I wonder what the Misissippians are up to now? Are they still doing the same things OTL or have they been irrevocably changed as a result of things like disease, horses, Old World fauna/flora, and Afro-Eurasian contact?

Honestly, if any form of Mississippian culture manages to survive then Al-Meshishib could turn out to be a really interesting region like Anawak or Cawania in terms of urbanization and cross-cultural exchange.

 

[Nyvis]

Sidenote, I wonder what the Misissippians are up to now? Are they still doing the same things OTL or have they been irrevocably changed as a result of things like disease, horses, Old World fauna/flora, and Afro-Eurasian contact?

Honestly, if any form of Mississippian culture manages to survive then Al-Meshishib could turn out to be a really interesting region like Anawak or Cawania in terms of urbanization and cross-cultural exchange.

Yeah I'd love to hear more about that. They should have had the opportunity to rebuild after the epidemics without someone knocking them down. Might have seen a few preachers reach them but they haven't been a focus yet.

 

[Denliner]

Yeah I'd love to hear more about that. They should have had the opportunity to rebuild after the epidemics without someone knocking them down. Might have seen a few preachers reach them but they haven't been a focus yet.

Yeah, I can certainly expect some wayward religious scholars, mystics, and wanderers to make their way to al-Meshishib at this point as the Asmarids and the Otomi control a large swath of the Pearls and there's probably some interest in exploring more of the Algarves. If an organized expedition was to be made, it would most likely consist of those people alongside some traders, merchants, and some bodyguard soldiers led by some kind of Asmarid kishafa/explorer like a MiaJ De Soto as they try to map out the region for trade and settlement.

I reckon it would be more like the Lewis and Clark expedition than Hernando De Soto's, which could be of some benefit to the Mississippians as they wouldn't be as ravaged by hostilities from the Asmarids as they did from the Spanish OTL. Additionally, if there are Mississippians that currently live in Mawfila (OTL Mobile) then they can be hired as interpreters for the expedition, which would be a huge help in maintaining peace between the natives and the explorers.

Still, even with the light touch of a MiaJ De Soto, I don't expect the natives to avert taking huge losses from the virgin field epidemics and there could be even cases of complete societal collapse in some areas since al-Meshishib isn't as populated or as unified compared to Anawak or Cawania. Not to mention they might've been changed earlier due to the earlier settlement of the Algarves, which means they might have captured horses from feral herds that came from the Chichimeca, especially the Caddoans (Probably means Missisppian cavalry or nomads are already a thing if that is the case).

However, I think any post-Crossing Mississippian can survive well in Andalusi society as they recover and there's even a case for them contributing their mound pyramid structures into mosques or other civil structures in an Andalusi al-Meshishib.

 

[Planet of Hats]

Does the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus and the Lighthouse of Alexandria still stands ?

Short answer: The Lighthouse is doing fine and dandy but could use a decent round of maintenance. The Mausoleum has basically been ignored.

 

[Denliner]

Short answer: The Lighthouse is doing fine and dandy but could use a decent round of maintenance. The Mausoleum has basically been ignored.

Wait...does that mean Muhammad Mahbat, an Algarvian, got to see and visit the Lighthouse of Alexandria?!!!!

Spoiler: Concept Art of the Lighthouse from AC Origins

NOW THAT IS AWESOME.

 

[Revalus]

Wait...does that mean Muhammad Mahbat, an Algarvian, got to see and visit the Lighthouse of Alexandria?!!!!

Spoiler: Concept Art of the Lighthouse from AC Origins

View attachment 611825

NOW THAT IS AWESOME.

Yep! A reconstruction study done in 2013 apparently thinks that the Pharos lighthouse may have been even taller than we commonly think:

Spoiler: Pharos Lighthouse!

😱

 

[Denliner]

Yep! A reconstruction study done in 2013 apparently thinks that the Pharos lighthouse may have been even taller than we commonly think:

This timeline has a weird tendency to preserve amazing artifacts and ancient cities that don't exist OTL.

It would honestly be a crazy dream for an archaeologist or a historian to just wade through old buildings of Tikal, Danin, Baghdad, Constantinople, Volubilis, Alexandria, etc. for ancient artifacts or books while there's high rises and apartments everywhere.

Since we're talking about places like Alexandria and Halicarnassus, then I think it's possible that Ephesus could have survived as a major Rum city. It's also likely that Palmyra and Antioch both survive in the Bataid Empire as major cities without the destructive campaigns of the Crusaders, Mongols, and the Timurids.

 

[Crazymachines]

This timeline has a weird tendency to preserve amazing artifacts and ancient cities that don't exist OTL.

It would honestly be a crazy dream for an archaeologist or a historian to just wade through old buildings of Tikal, Danin, Baghdad, Constantinople, Volubilis, Alexandria, etc. for ancient artifacts or books while there's high rises and apartments everywhere.

Since we're talking about places like Alexandria and Halicarnassus, then I think it's possible that Ephesus could have survived as a major Rum city. It's also likely that Palmyra and Antioch both survive in the Bataid Empire as major cities without the destructive campaigns of the Crusaders, Mongols, and the Timurids.

i would however be on the lookput for landmarks that weren't distroyed in OTL but were ITTL

 

[Revalus]

Since we're talking about places like Alexandria and Halicarnassus, then I think it's possible that Ephesus could have survived as a major Rum city. It's also likely that Palmyra and Antioch both survive in the Bataid Empire as major cities without the destructive campaigns of the Crusaders, Mongols, and the Timurids.

Ephesus shrank and virtually died out mainly because its harbor silted up and the Cayster River pushed the coastline far out to sea by up to 5 kilometers, thereby making Ephesus an inland city. If we want it to remain viable as a major city, the rulers would need to dig a major canal from the old harbor to the sea, as well as find some way for the river to not silt up the canal at any point, especially its sea terminus. Furthermore, the silting caused marshes to appear, which then caused constant outbreaks of malaria. That would need resolving, too.

 

[Denliner]

Ephesus shrank and virtually died out mainly because its harbor silted up and the Cayster River pushed the coastline far out to sea by up to 5 kilometers, thereby making Ephesus an inland city. If we want it to remain viable as a major city, the rulers would need to dig a major canal from the old harbor to the sea, as well as find some way for the river to not silt up the canal at any point, especially its sea terminus. Furthermore, the silting caused marshes to appear, which then caused constant outbreaks of malaria. That would need resolving, too.

Ah, that makes the survival of Ephesus far less likely. What a shame.
At least Antioch is canon while Palmyra stands a good chance to surviving as a small town or even a city.

i would however be on the lookput for landmarks that weren't distroyed in OTL but were ITTL

I legit cannot think of what contemporary landmarks/cities could be destroyed in MiaJ since it's easier to identify what survives compared to finding factors which leads to a certain city's destruction. The only place that I can realistically think of is Azcapotzalco since that was abandoned by the 1300s, although it could survive as a name for a district of some Otomi city in the Anahuac Valley. I also heard that Great Zimbabwe doesn't really exist in the same form OTL, although the Hlubi created the Hlubi Kingdom in its place anyways (Maybe the Shona created MiaJ Zimbabwe before the Hlubi came?).

Places like Cholula or Athens could be irrevocably changed though due to the actions of the Otomi/Andalusi and the Romans "refurbishing" places like the Great Pyramid or the Parthenon, although modern naturalists would be horrified by the removal of ancient edifices and artifacts from the temples, replacing them with Islamic calligraphy and rugs.

EDIT #1: Whoops, the Hlubi are an actual ethnic group OTL! That probably means they migrated from South Africa to Zimbabwe in the meantime since their OTL location differs from MiaJ. Sadly that means they've displaced the original MiaJ Zimbabwe and the Shona living there, so who knows that's going to happen to them over time.

 

[Planet of Hats]

Ah, that makes the survival of Ephesus far less likely. What a shame.
At least Antioch is canon while Palmyra stands a good chance to surviving as a small town or even a city.


I legit cannot think of what contemporary landmarks/cities could be destroyed in MiaJ since it's easier to identify what survives compared to finding factors which leads to a certain city's destruction. The only place that I can realistically think of is Azcapotzalco since that was abandoned by the 1300s, although it could survive as a name for a district of some Otomi city in the Anahuac Valley. I also heard that Great Zimbabwe doesn't really exist in the same form OTL (could be very much wrong though), although the Shona might have created the Hlubi Kingdom anyways.

Places like Cholula or Athens could be irrevocably changed though due to the actions of the Otomi/Andalusi and the Romans "refurbishing" places like the Great Pyramid or the Parthenon, although modern naturalists would be horrified by the removal of ancient edifices and artifacts from the temples, replacing them with Islamic calligraphy and rugs.

One that's doing pretty rotten right now is Stonehenge. It's on land owned by a middling noble family of Anglo-Danish extraction, and they've mostly let it topple and become overgrown, mostly because they see it as too pagan.

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

The land appears to have been peopled at that time largely by the ethnic group known as the Vlachs. Evidence beginning from the early 11th century turns up signs of stirrups and horseshoes in the Turkic style, novel in the area at the time - it attests to the gradual establishment of Pecheneg settlements in the lands of the Vlachs. Indeed, the modern city of Batas, at the confluence of the Olt with the Danube, seems to date from around this time, established as a long-term encampment for a group of Pechenegs fleeing deeper into Vlach territory.

This blending of ethnicities in the land then called Patzinakia by the Greeks would lay the foundations of what the lands between the Danube and the Carpathians would one day become. History refers to it today as the Vlacho-Pecheneg State, a place where the Pecheneg and Vlach populations began to blend together and experience cultural mixing - but the gradual adoption of the proto-Vlach language of the region by the Pechenegs would take time and generations of interbreeding.[1]

While some of the Pechenegs settled immediately and seem to have begun to take wives from among the native population,



The growing alliance between the rump Pechenegs and the Bulgar Tsar - more in the nature at first of the nascent Vlacho-Pecheneg State acknowledging Bulgar suzerainty - would mark the first step in salvaging the fates of two peoples. The Bulgars, humbled at Byzantine hands, would gain an ally they could march back to power with - and the Pechenegs would escape becoming a mere footnote in history. Instead they became one of the most important cultures in Eurasian history.




[1] OTL, the Pechenegs are basically a footnote after the Cumans come in and stomp them; they lost their national identity. Here, they settle in Wallachia for reasons outlined in the narrative. What you'll see out of this is a sort of Turco-Bulgar-Romance culture with a unique Eastern Romance language which takes not only from Slavic, but from the Oghuz Turkic language the Pechenegs spoke.

I had forgotten that the Pechenegs will have such a unique language and culture I’m liking the idea of a Islamic Romance-Turco-bulgar culture on the Danube it’s pretty cool could we learn more about them ? How do they call themselves Pechenegs ? Patzinakian ? Do they live on both side of the Danube ? A Vlacho Pechenegs Muslim state on the Danube is really an awesome idea this timeline is really full of such awesome idea with Shogunate style system for Al Andalusia , Hellenized Islamic Roman Empire , Anglo danish Britain , the Banu Hilal migrating South and China starting industrialising. Truly one of the best TL out there

 

[Denliner]

I had forgotten that the Pechenegs will have such a unique language and culture I’m liking the idea of a Islamic Romance-Turco-bulgar culture on the Danube could we learn more about them ? How do they call themselves Pechenegs ? Patzinakian ?

I think most people would call them Patzinaks based on the Greek translation. I would definitely agree though, Patzinakia is one of the most interesting regions that I've seen in MiaJ and I can't wait to see them if we ever get back to the Bataids tbh.

I do wonder how many Vlachs and Bulgars have converted to Islam while in Patzinakia since I did assume that it was already a Muslim majority country by 1490.

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

I think most people would call them Patzinaks based on the Greek translation. I would definitely agree though, Patzinakia is one of the most interesting regions that I've seen in MiaJ and I can't wait to see them if we ever get back to the Bataids tbh.

I do wonder how many Vlachs and Bulgars have converted to Islam while in Patzinakia since I did assume that it was already a Muslim majority country by 1490.

Any idea on how much Christianised the Vlachs were around 1070s ? I tried to find about it on Wikipedia but it was pretty unclear . Yeah it seemed likely to me that a name coming from Patzinakia would be more likely as it could refer more specifically to the cultural fusion between Vlachs and Pechenegs instead of Pechenegs which would see to only refer to the pre migration and settlement Pechenegs . Hyped for it as well . Yeah I assume to that Patzinakia would be already majority Muslim by the 1490

 

[Planet of Hats]

I think most people would call them Patzinaks based on the Greek translation. I would definitely agree though, Patzinakia is one of the most interesting regions that I've seen in MiaJ and I can't wait to see them if we ever get back to the Bataids tbh.

I do wonder how many Vlachs and Bulgars have converted to Islam while in Patzinakia since I did assume that it was already a Muslim majority country by 1490.

If it means anything, I've got part of the next chapter written up, but I've been fighting some pretty severe depression and blood chemistry woes over the past while and my energy levels have accordingly been in the sewer.

 

[Denliner]

If it means anything, I've got part of the next chapter written up, but I've been fighting some pretty severe depression and blood chemistry woes over the past while and my energy levels have accordingly been in the sewer.

Oh noes!
I sincerely hope that you'll feel better soon.

 

[Orisha91]

If it means anything, I've got part of the next chapter written up, but I've been fighting some pretty severe depression and blood chemistry woes over the past while and my energy levels have accordingly been in the sewer.

Sorry to hear that. Best of wishes

 

[Planet of Hats]

Oh noes!
I sincerely hope that you'll feel better soon.

Sorry to hear that. Best of wishes

I'll be alright. The lockdown hasn't been kind to me, but I think there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Yama951]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_garden

Stumbled on this Wikipedia article and I'm now imagining Al-Andalus and Maghreb being covered in big gardens like this, though maybe developing their own gardening tradition due to additions from the Americas...