Rearm the British Infantry for WWII

[MarcH]

All very interesting and dear to my light blue heart, but aren't we getting a bit off topic here? I do not see an infantry role for the deployment of 22,000 pound bombs- you'll never fit one of those on an universal carrier....

You have to know at least some squaddies will try.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

You have to know at least some squaddies will try.

Or at least try to con some recruits into trying it.

 

[phx1138]

At risk of being past its sell-by date...

One thing the British Army desperately needed was a fuel can that didn't leak. They stole the German design OTL; was that possible before the war?

 

[marathag]

At risk of being past its sell-by date...

One thing the British Army desperately needed was a fuel can that didn't leak. They stole the German design OTL; was that possible before the war?

Milk cans. 2 to 25 gallons
Kerosene cans similar in US
They were thicker metal, made to hold up to rough roads and getting bounced on horse drawn wagons from Farm to the Rail Depot.
1870 onwards

 

[Draconis]

Milk cans. 2 to 25 gallons
Kerosene cans similar in US
They were thicker metal, made to hold up to rough roads and getting bounced on horse drawn wagons from Farm to the Rail Depot.
1870 onwards

So instead of Jerry cans they'll have Jersey cans.

 

[Father Maryland]

Or at least try to con some recruits into trying it.

I just imagined a WALLIED TL where they have to occupy Moscow post war. And some Squaddies manage to con couple dozen new conscripts into trying to move the Thunder Stone by hand.

Bronze Horseman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Russians managed to move the giant rock (originally weighing 1500 tons) by hand for miles. They basically built a bunch of copper proto ball bearings and just pushed it dozens of miles on top. Still the single largest stone ever moved entirely by human hand. They didn't even use horses or mules. They basically just pushed it to the coast and then built a mammoth barge to carry it. And then when they reached the other coast they pushed it the rest of the way.

Now imagine some more experienced squaddies conning say around a platoon of newbies into trying to do the thing by themselves.

 

[McPherson]

I just imagined a WALLIED TL where they have to occupy Moscow post war. And some Squaddies manage to con couple dozen new conscripts into trying to move the Thunder Stone by hand.

Bronze Horseman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Russians managed to move the giant rock (originally weighing 1500 tons) by hand for miles. They basically built a bunch of copper proto ball bearings and just pushed it dozens of miles on top. Still the single largest stone ever moved entirely by human hand. They didn't even use horses or mules. They basically just pushed it to the coast and then built a mammoth barge to carry it. And then when they reached the other coast they pushed it the rest of the way.

Now imagine some more experienced squaddies conning say around a platoon of newbies into trying to do the thing by themselves.

I know this is off topic, but what about that 1500 tonne stone block under the remains of Herod's temple? The one that is part of the Wailing Wall?

Derailment ends. Back to topic.

At risk of being past its sell-by date...

One thing the British Army desperately needed was a fuel can that didn't leak. They stole the German design OTL; was that possible before the war?

History.

Americans.

In 1939, American engineer Paul Pleiss had built a vehicle to journey to India with his German colleague. After building the car, they realised they did not have any storage for emergency water. The German engineer had access to the stockpile of jerrycans at Berlin Tempelhof Airport and managed to take three of them. They drove across 11 national borders without incident until Field Marshal Göring sent a plane to take the engineer home. The German engineer also gave Pleiss complete specifications for the manufacture of the can.[8] Pleiss continued on to Calcutta, put his car in storage, and flew back to Philadelphia, where he told American military officials about the can. He could raise no interest.[8] Without a sample, he realised he could not get anywhere. He eventually shipped the car to New York by a roundabout method, and sent a can to Washington. The War Department decided instead to use World War I ten-US-gallon (38 l; 8.3 imp gal) cans with two screw closures, which required both a spanner and funnel for pouring.[8]

The one jerrycan in American possession was sent to Camp Holabird, Maryland, where it was redesigned. The new design retained the handles, size and shape, but is most easily distinguishable from the German original by the simplified 'X' - stiffening indentations in the sides of the can. The US can could be stacked interchangeably with German or British cans. The German recessed welded seam was replaced with rolled seams which were prone to leakage. For fuel cans, the lining was removed and a spanner and funnel were required.[8] A similar water can was also adopted, with a flip-top lid and enamel lining.

The US-designed jerrycan was widely used by US Army and Marine Corps units. In all overseas theaters, fuel and other petroleum products represented about 50% of all supply needs, measured by weight.[9] In the European Theatre of Operations alone, over 19 million were required to support US forces by May 1945.[9]

Should have adopted it earlier and welded the seams instead of pressed them shut... idiots.

 

[Driftless]

Milk cans. 2 to 25 gallons
Kerosene cans similar in US
They were thicker metal, made to hold up to rough roads and getting bounced on horse drawn wagons from Farm to the Rail Depot.
1870 onwards

Built as sturdy as a brick outhouse. They would stand up to years of use and abuse.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Built as sturdy as a brick outhouse. They would stand up to years of use and abuse.

Lots of wasted space in the back of the lorry though, it's the wrong shape.

 

[Driftless]

Lots of wasted space in the back of the lorry though, it's the wrong shape.

Oh, to be sure. The Jerry Can was a brilliant concept and reality. The milk can would just be a very useful "make do" till you come up with something better.

FWIW, the local dairy was still using the 25g milk cans when I was a kid. It was only two doors down, so I'd see the trucks bring them in every day from the farms. I think you'd be impressed with the amount of volume they brought in. Eventually, the can pick-ups were replaced by large and larger bulk tankers - as the small individual farms went under and the remaining farms got bigger

 

[PMN1]

Oh, to be sure. The Jerry Can was a brilliant concept and reality. The milk can would just be a very useful "make do" till you come up with something better.

FWIW, the local dairy was still using the 25g milk cans when I was a kid. It was only two doors down, so I'd see the trucks bring them in every day from the farms. I think you'd be impressed with the amount of volume they brought in. Eventually, the can pick-ups were replaced by large and larger bulk tankers - as the small individual farms went under and the remaining farms got bigger

Make the Milk Can Jerrycan shaped.......

 

[McPherson]

Make the Milk Can Jerrycan shaped.......

Judge Jerry Springer! The TV Legend Gets A New Show

Do we really want to do that?

 

[marathag]

Lots of wasted space in the back of the lorry though, it's the wrong shape.

still stackable, stronger

For ease of movement, 5 or 10 gallon size is best, with a filled can, 10s are a workout, 15 almost too much to move around easily by one guy.
Other advantage, in production by many different manufacturers

 

[PMN1]

Judge Jerry Springer! The TV Legend Gets A New Show

Do we really want to do that?

Urrgghhh

 

[HPM]

The answer is to get the churn makers to design a square petrol can.

 

[McPherson]

At the risk of setting one off, I want to ask a question... What does one think of British grenades? I happen to dislike the ergonomics of the American WWII issued ones, as being very unsafe. Were the British grenades something Private Fumbles could handle? Were there better alternatives?

 

[Rickshaw]

At the risk of setting one off, I want to ask a question... What does one think of British grenades? I happen to dislike the ergonomics of the American WWII issued ones, as being very unsafe. Were the British grenades something Private Fumbles could handle? Were there better alternatives?

There is no one called "Private Fumbles" except in your imagination. I know the American education system is lacking but other countries educate their citizens to at least a marginal level. The ergonomics of a hand grenade are pretty well standardised. The only really viable alternative is the stick grenade. They worked quite well for the German Army...

 

[McPherson]

There is no one called "Private Fumbles" except in your imagination. I know the American education system is lacking but other countries educate their citizens to at least a marginal level. The ergonomics of a hand grenade are pretty well standardised. The only really viable alternative is the stick grenade. They worked quite well for the German Army...

The question is about making grenades safer.

As for Private Fumbles...

And on a related note...
ANY army, any when and any where has its share of "Private Fumbles".

The standard Mills bomb and the French F1 fragmentation grenade are called one step function devices because it only takes pulling the pin to make them irrevocably function. Fumbles, when he drops the damn thing, has a maybe 3-5 seconds to get to cover before he blows himself up.

Now then...

The "dumb" Americans are trying to develop a 2 function grenade, where the grenade will be a two step arming process which gives Fumbles a chance if he screws up step one. He still has step two to save his life.

BTW, it is called ergonomics and dry-runs. Ergonomics is how one avoids grenade accidents by designing to idiot proof the grenade, and how one trains soldiers in urban building clearing is the dry run, so that the trainees do not shoot each other in a live fire training exercise because some stupid goddamned idiot sergeant or incompetent officer wanted to "simulate" surprise conditions without course familiarization.

Edit: The German stick grenade or WW II potato masher is a two step function grenade. One has to unscrew the cap at the butt of the stick, which is step 1. A ceramic or wooden ball falls out and that is pulled to activate a fuse train inside the grenade, which is step 2. There is a time delay in that friction pull sufficient and the grenade is so shaped so that it will not be easy to drop, but easy to throw at step 2. Just fling it by the stick handle in the direction of the enemy and let go. Very idiot proofed in design with excellent ergonomics for an inherently dangerous device. Superior to the Wally stuff in that respect. Good grenade.

 

[Rickshaw]

*SIGH* you are applying modern concepts to things that are generations old. Grenades actually are two step functioning objects. First you must pull the pin and then release the handle. Your "Private Fumbles" is actually Private Nervous. He has had it indoctrinated into him that he is going to fumble with the grenade. So he fumbles. It is the job of the conducting officer to remove first the trainee and then himself from the blastzone. I was taught not to fumble, that I was in charge when I handled the grenade and that it would only explode after I had released it from my grasp. I undertook one of the last Grenade Assault courses in the Australian Army. No one on the course fumbled, no one was a danger to themselves or the conducting officer. The Army ceased the course after my one, considering it, "too dangerous". All explosive devices are dangerous. Grenades or otherwise and should be treated with caution. For every "Private Fumbles" there are a thousand Private Competents.

 

[McPherson]

*SIGH* you are applying modern concepts to things that are generations old. Grenades actually are two step functioning objects. First you must pull the pin and then release the handle. Your "Private Fumbles" is actually Private Nervous. He has had it indoctrinated into him that he is going to fumble with the grenade. So he fumbles. It is the job of the conducting officer to remove first the trainee and then himself from the blastzone. I was taught not to fumble, that I was in charge when I handled the grenade and that it would only explode after I had released it from my grasp. I undertook one of the last Grenade Assault courses in the Australian Army. No one on the course fumbled, no one was a danger to themselves or the conducting officer. The Army ceased the course after my one, considering it, "too dangerous". All explosive devices are dangerous. Grenades or otherwise and should be treated with caution. For every "Private Fumbles" there are a thousand Private Competents.

Spring powered spoon or release lever or tab on the WWII grenades and many modern ones, so it flies off in the throw. One step. Reiterated... ONE STEP function. Irrevocable once the pin is pulled.