Spain annexes and incorporates Portugal

[Phalamus]

I have some doubts that the challenge is even possible to accomplish in these exact terms. After the traumatic experience of the OTL Iberian Union, the Portuguese wouldn't be tricked into trying something like that again, and I doubt that the finances of a an actual Spanish conquest of Portugal would work.

What I mean by this is simple: Spain definitely has enough troops to overrun mainland Portugal if they really committ, but it wouldn't be a walk in the park and the resistance war that would surely ensue would put a significant strain on the Spanish Crown. Given that it's impossible that Spain could also take Portugal's colonies in that same invasion (maybe some parts of southern Brazil at most, but even that is fairly unlikely and you can forget about the rest), all that they would gain would be an overpopulated, not particularly productive and extremely rebelious western province. Why would they want that?

 

[Phalamus]

Oh, and btw, speaking of earlier PoDs for a united Iberia, why doesn't anyone ever think of a Castillan victory in 1386? It's very plausible, and it would strangle Portuguese nationalism in its cradle. Post middle ages, it's the best way to do it by far

 

[Lusitania]

Oh, and btw, speaking of earlier PoDs for a united Iberia, why doesn't anyone ever think of a Castillan victory in 1386? It's very plausible, and it would strangle Portuguese nationalism in its cradle. Post middle ages, it's the best way to do it by far

A victory in 1386 would of made Portuguese like leonese or Galician with a greater Castile.

 

[Nivek]

I have some doubts that the challenge is even possible to accomplish in these exact terms. After the traumatic experience of the OTL Iberian Union, the Portuguese wouldn't be tricked into trying something like that again, and I doubt that the finances of a an actual Spanish conquest of Portugal would work.

What I mean by this is simple: Spain definitely has enough troops to overrun mainland Portugal if they really committ, but it wouldn't be a walk in the park and the resistance war that would surely ensue would put a significant strain on the Spanish Crown. Given that it's impossible that Spain could also take Portugal's colonies in that same invasion (maybe some parts of southern Brazil at most, but even that is fairly unlikely and you can forget about the rest), all that they would gain would be an overpopulated, not particularly productive and extremely rebelious western province. Why would they want that?

This i hate how people sell portugal so short, that country pulled things other have issues far harder. For me we could see the opposite, a weaker spain asking portugal to bail them out

 

[kasumigenx]

Maybe if Portugal was the dominant country in the union.

 

[Lusitania]

As one person said once on this website. “I hate Portuguese history for it seems ASB that a country do small accomplished what it did”.

Yes we have accomplished great and wonderful things.

but really people never no way Spain going to bring Portugal willingly back to a union. For remember that Spain was not a country that had tons of extra troops or after 1640s a huge treasury with money ready to be spent on a whim. If Spain tried to bring Portugal by force into a union it would of needed to pull troops from other areas and that would of made those regions venerable to attack especially since it need to garrison thousands of troops throughout the country.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Just a little note as to my aims. A lot of these single issue threads have helped me very much merge outcomes in my mind towards creating the timeline that underlies my new story The Shifting Sands - therefore I am very grateful for the discussion herein, which together with others elsewhere has helped enormously. Thanks!

 

[Santo Nombre]

But the premise of this thread is that nothing changes till 1680. Therefore there is nothing that Spain can do to recreate the Iberian union. All the things I see people suggest all deal with stuff prior to 1680.

You are right. So lets try to found a PoD after 1680 that could have changed the owner of the spanish crown and that could have reunited Portugal to the rest of the Iberian peninsula.

1- Pedro II of Portugal takes Maria Antonia of Austria as second wife instead of Maria Sophia of Neuburg in 1687. They have a boy called Juan who will be the heir of Portugal. When the boy has ten his uncle Charles II of Spain appoints him as heir of the spanish throne. We can figure out some internal revolts against the portuguese influence, and the french may make a deal with the english too. The prince can marry Maria Anna of Austria as a way to enforce the austrian support to this new Iberian Union. So, after the War of the Union (an ATL war of succession: Austria, Portugal, southern Castilla and Aragon vs. France, England, Netherland and northern Castilla) the iberian peninsula is united under the Braganza-Austria house.

2-With the prince Joao ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/João,_Prince_of_Brazil ) living five or six more years and having a brother next year, Isabel Luisa the "always engaged" will be the third on the line for the portuguese crown and may finally marry Charles II of Spain in 1689. She can have an affair with a handsome courtier or her confessor, giving birth to a boy called Gabriel, as the angel of the annunciation. Portocarrero, Archbishop of Toledo, knows the thruth but gives the absolution to the queen after she promises that she will go to a convent when the king dies. So he protects the child and governs Spain until Gabriel the First is old enough to reign arround 1703. He can marry Maria Anna of Austria, 5 years older, or an ATL daughter of emperor Charles VI (à la Maria Theresa) as a way to approach the austrians. Their son or daughter can inherit the portuguese realm by marriage after a lot of butterflies that include many Braganza diying during the earthquake of 1755.

3-Joseph Ferdinand survives and divents Ferdinand VI of Spain. France wants Naples and Sicily and they may try to convince the English to oppose this candidate. He marries an ATL daughter of Pedro II of Portugal and let the butterflies do their work.

 

[Wendell]

Spain in OTL wasn't a coherent, singular entity until the 1700's anyway.

 

[Phalamus]

You are right. So lets try to found a PoD after 1680 that could have changed the owner of the spanish crown and that could have reunited Portugal to the rest of the Iberian peninsula.

1- Pedro II of Portugal takes Maria Antonia of Austria as second wife instead of Maria Sophia of Neuburg in 1687. They have a boy called Juan who will be the heir of Portugal. When the boy has ten his uncle Charles II of Spain appoints him as heir of the spanish throne. We can figure out some internal revolts against the portuguese influence, and the french may make a deal with the english too. The prince can marry Maria Anna of Austria as a way to enforce the austrian support to this new Iberian Union. So, after the War of the Union (an ATL war of succession: Austria, Portugal, southern Castilla and Aragon vs. France, England, Netherland and northern Castilla) the iberian peninsula is united under the Braganza-Austria house.

2-With the prince Joao ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/João,_Prince_of_Brazil ) living five or six more years and having a brother next year, Isabel Luisa the "always engaged" will be the third on the line for the portuguese crown and may finally marry Charles II of Spain in 1689. She can have an affair with a handsome courtier or her confessor, giving birth to a boy called Gabriel, as the angel of the annunciation. Portocarrero, Archbishop of Toledo, knows the thruth but gives the absolution to the queen after she promises that she will go to a convent when the king dies. So he protects the child and governs Spain until Gabriel the First is old enough to reign arround 1703. He can marry Maria Anna of Austria, 5 years older, or an ATL daughter of emperor Charles VI (à la Maria Theresa) as a way to approach the austrians. Their son or daughter can inherit the portuguese realm by marriage after a lot of butterflies that include many Braganza diying during the earthquake of 1755.

3-Joseph Ferdinand survives and divents Ferdinand VI of Spain. France wants Naples and Sicily and they may try to convince the English to oppose this candidate. He marries an ATL daughter of Pedro II of Portugal and let the butterflies do their work.

You can't simply engineer a new Iberian Union after the fall of the first one by having X marry Y and having Z kid. Even if those marriages were allowed to take place, the Portuguese elites would most likely never allow a Portuguese monarch to take the Spanish or vice-versa. Even if the king is Portuguese and the capital is in Lisbon, the simply fact that there would be a larger Spanish nobility lobbying the crown would be a deal breaker for the Portuguese nobility and bourgeoisie. And that's not mention the obvious problem of getting embroiled in European conflicts (which Portugal has almost always tried to avoid).

You can't simply disregard the problems of nationalism, conflicting interests, and the traumatic experience of the first Iberian Union.

 

[Pinny_Chet]

Have the Portuguese dynasty become rulers of Spain after the Bourbons take over. Some of the Bourbon princes need to die to achieve this. But the Portuguese King needs to relocate to Madrid to have any chance to rule Iberia. The rest is easy, keep the existing institutions. There is no reason to piss off the Portuguese nobility by centralizing the state like the Bourbons would do. If Spains population grows further while the Portuguese leave unrestricted to Brazil then you can centralize the State.

 

[kasumigenx]

Actually, swapping Luzon with the Spice Islands with the Portuguese and Castilian crown colonies will work wonders in maintaining the personal union because Castile and Spain, in general, will have access to the Spice trade which will keep its riches and possibly use it against Mexico while Portugal will keep its involvement in Luzon at a minimum keeping its pagan population, so it is a win-win.

 

[Lusitania]

Have Spain fall apart and Portuguese king splits Spain with other claimant.
Portugal get Galicia, Leao, half of Andalusia plus Rio de la plata and half of canaries. Plus Spanish Africa.

they can keep the rest.

 

[isabella]

For a surviving union you need to work on the first, after that the situation will make impossible a new union between Spain and Portugal...
So survival of Miguel da Paz or don Carlos or the line of the latter (who would change the timing, modality and strength of the union) is the best way...
after that the only way for having a such union is preventing the split