Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

But I don't think they get a dominant position in the polish economy. An important one, sure. But more as the middle(wo)men to the west than an outright force in Poland itself. Somehow I think the chief secretary of a company being a polish woman is going to be a staple in german TV (two not-exclusive varieties: Ms. My-eyes-are-up-here and Ms. You-are-so-slow-that-I-killed-50-russians-before-you-brushed-your-teeth)
Sorry im stupid, can you explain to me why a pole would be chief Secretary?


Second question post second russo german war what demands would the eastern european former russian territory countries demand in the peace? Such as poland, baltic and finland.
 
Sorry im stupid, can you explain to me why a pole would be chief Secretary?
The german term is Chefsekretär - which means I mistranslated head secretary (i.e. the most senior secretary of the pool). Which is a position of considerable inofficial authority.
Basically, I'd wager that german companies doing business in Poland have some sort of senior employee of polish extraction (probably to grease the wheels with the other side...and be a bit inclusive). Which the german entertainment TV would flanderize into that every company has a former polish fighter as the head secretary. Which is completely untrue, but makes for comedy.
Second question post second russo german war what demands would the eastern european former russian territory countries demand in the peace? Such as poland, baltic and finland.
As mentionened (but after looking through the thread, I couldn't find any WoG to substantiate), I think it possible that Poland gets some ukranian territory and Ukraine gets some russian territory, as far as feasible. OTL, this happend the other way round, using german territory as compensation. @carlton_bach mentioned that there is some limit about partioning Russia, which I think can be streched by such exercises. After round 2, the germans want the russians incapable of ever starting round three. So, everything which is somehow justifiable gets forked over to another party.
 
Which of the German colonies were most important or most valued? Of the three african colonies could someone tell me the order of important of them plz?
 
Which of the German colonies were most important or most valued? Of the three african colonies could someone tell me the order of important of them plz?

That changed over history, so it will also do so ITTL. Südwest will be considered the most important once the diamond fields are discovered and serious numbers of settlers move in, and the settler comunity will ensure it stays at the top of most political agendas. Ostafrika drops to second, and that may be contested by Kamerun as plantation agriculture takes off there. Togo ranks with the odd bit of New Guinea and the Pacific islands as interesting, but not really important. Qingdao will move in and out of focus with the political fortunes of China.
 
@carlton_bach how is spain and Luxemburg doing?

Also i noticed two things rereading, east prussia and konigsberg at very least will be at some point the frontline or may even fall to the russians as it will be devastated even more. Due to a even bigger second rebuilding.

Secondly german g-wagons will be very effective, the russian arms update states they had to throw alot to stop there thrusts.

Also does the Geneva convention exist?
 
@carlton_bach how is spain and Luxemburg doing?

Spain isn't doing too well right now - see "Crise de Modernite". Luxemburg is caught between two giants, rather uncomfortably, but also profitably.

Also i noticed two things rereading, east prussia and konigsberg at very least will be at some point the frontline or may even fall to the russians as it will be devastated even more. Due to a even bigger second rebuilding.

Königsberg will be within range of Russian frontal aviation, and they'll make the most of it.

Secondly german g-wagons will be very effective, the russian arms update states they had to throw alot to stop there thrusts.

They are a force to be reckoned with, but not a war-winning weapon and less effective than everyone expected in the early days of the war.

Also does the Geneva convention exist?

Not as such, but an analogue does. More honoured in the breach than the observance when push comes to shove.
 
Not as such, but an analogue does. More honoured in the breach than the observance when push comes to shove.
So mostly a gentlemans' agreement? "You don't do what you do not want done to you"-style?
Yeah, I can see the PU guys chucking that one out once they think revenge against the traitors/enemies/insert-enemy-of-choice-here is at hand.
And then the Imperials demonstrating that things called "Surtr" are not childrens toys. How does Russia exist as a coherent entity after the second go? If the Imperials go whole-hog on them, there will be little left west of the Urals resembling cities/civilisation.

On the positive side: The alt-genevas will have much authority afterwards.
 
Will Belarusians even exist as a people in this world? I simply see nothing stopping the poles from wiping out there culture and language. Can a independent Belarus even exist is there even enough land left under russian control to be carved for them.

Also what is the polish position on Lithuania poland otl did want to rule them and invaded them. So what about now.
 
Will Belarusians even exist as a people in this world? I simply see nothing stopping the poles from wiping out there culture and language. Can a independent Belarus even exist is there even enough land left under russian control to be carved for them.

I'm pretty sure some form of identity will exist, but certainly no national entity. To the russian government, Belorussian is considered a dialect of Russian. The Poles consider them Russians and expelled a significant number of them.

Also what is the polish position on Lithuania poland otl did want to rule them and invaded them. So what about now.

It's not like they would say no to the opportunity, but it is not going to happen. Germnany is sitting on all irredenta in its backyard quite solidly, and all those new nations have claims on some neighbour or other.
 
They always write about fighting breaking out, but fighting, to be honest, was usually something we tried to avoid. At least, not on equal terms. You had a lot of young men ready to pick up a rifle, but mostly we would go to where we knew there were only civilians. That was the point, the politicians had said said, to clean up the land, to ensure that Slavs could live with Slavs. And I guess they were trying to ensure Magyars lived with Magyars, or Romanians with Romanians. In retrospect it's hard to see how it was worth it.


Back then, of course, it was exhilarating. You would come to a village, twenty or thirty men with rifles (…) and you were kings. Rulers of everything. You could take whatever you wanted. (…) But if we knew there were fighters around, we would sneak in at night instead, break windows, steal cattle, set fires or hamstring horses. Anything that would convince them to leave. (...) Come to think of it, that had been happening inside the villages, too, earlier. Two homes had had Magyar families living in them, but they sold their land and left. Nobody would do business with them, their tools kept being broken. We children jeered at them in the market. I didn't see it like that back then, but the whole thing had been brewing for many years.


I think it came from having the private schools everywhere. I mean, who wants to go to a school where you can't understand the teacher? And that was what the state schools were like, after the 1920s, when they started making everyone learn Hungarian again. I think the emperor accepted that only because Budapest agreed to allow private schools in other languages. That was stupid, in retrospect. Of course we all went to schools where we could follow classes. I mean, what peasant child can hope to go to a state university? (…) you got your numbers and letters, your basic science. And they taught us how we were Slavs, oppressed in our own historic homeland by Asian barbarians from the earliest days. How the Hungarians were no better than the Ottomans, steppe nomads all. Which is kind of funny, seeing how the Ottomans were our allies all along. But I guess that's politics for you. (…) And the schools were cheap, they were paid by national clubs and foundations paid for by rich donors. They now say a lot of that money came from Russia, really. Could be. But trust me, we were plenty stupid enough to do that to ourselves back then, and the Hungarians were no different, only they used government money for it.


(…)


Things got pretty bad in about 36. Of course they'd been bad a long time, but for a young man with a gun, there was always a place where you mattered, where you could feel like you were powerful and significant. But now, it was no longer just the police and the thugs. They were bringing in soldiers with cannon and machine guns, and they burned whole villages. (…) we kept hearing that the emperor was against this, that we would be free. The newspapers were full of it – well, ours. Theirs were shouting to high heaven about the treachery of the Germans and the evils of tripartism. But it gave us hope, and when the war happened, we thought that was it.


Except the whole thing just sort of fizzled out. Yes, the raids ended, the elections happened, but there was never a triumphant entry into Budapest. Nothing was ever really decided. (…) Mind, I had a job then and really wasn't young enough for that game. But we had all kept our rifles, which was a good thing because the split in 39 brought the police back into the countryside worse than ever. Somehow all the new officers the local councils had hired disappeared, and the patrolmen all spoke Hungarian. Acted like Huns, too.


(...)


Fact is, it felt like the right thing to do. We had suffered so much, and now that we'd tasted a bit of self-determination and real power, we wouldn't let them take it away again. And any way of fighting back looked good. I never asked where the bombs came from. Dynamite had worked for the Anarchists, we figured the armoury guys just had a source in a mine somewhere. If I had known the stuff came from Russia – I actually don't know if I would have done anything different. Maybe not. I wasn't even thirty, and I was angry. But maybe I would have walked away. This way, well, we got our elected councils in the end, like the Czechs and the Slovaks and Slovenes and Croats did. But we did a lot of damage along the way. Without the big war, the Huns would probably – sorry, Hungarians. They would have killed us. We only survived because the Czar was an idiot. That's history for you.


(Interview with Andrej L. Goretzky, former insurgent leader and Slovak politician)
 

yboxman

Banned
"
And when the war happened, we thought that was it.


Except the whole thing just sort of fizzled out. "

I assume this is the civil war between Vienna and Budapest and that Budapest sorta-kinda wins (secures secession or even more autonomy) but at the cost of letting Croatia go to Vienna?
 
This way, well, we got our elected councils in the end, like the Czechs and the Slovaks and Slovenes and Croats did. But we did a lot of damage along the way. Without the big war, the Huns would probably – sorry, Hungarians. They would have killed us. We only survived because the Czar was an idiot. That's history for you.


(Interview with Andrej L. Goretzky, former insurgent leader and Slovak politician)
Kinda weird that he's a Slovak referring to Slovakia as the other.

Other than that, great update. So the Austro-Hungarian Empire federalized? Franz Ferdinand got his wish in the end?
 
"
And when the war happened, we thought that was it.


Except the whole thing just sort of fizzled out. "

I assume this is the civil war between Vienna and Budapest and that Budapest sorta-kinda wins (secures secession or even more autonomy) but at the cost of letting Croatia go to Vienna?
Sort of. It was the war that everyone aghrees didn't really happen because it would have required everyone to acknowledge that the loyalty of the armed forces was questionable and neither side thought they could win. But basically, yes, it was the grand gesture that closed the 1937738 Ausgleich with extensive changes and lots of local autonomy. Good for the Croats and Romanians, less good for the Slovaks of Upper Hungary, and certainly lousy for many ethnic minorities. especially since the Hungarian government decided they could get back into their old habits in the lands that the compromise made "theirs" as they saw it.
 
Kinda weird that he's a Slovak referring to Slovakia as the other.

Other than that, great update. So the Austro-Hungarian Empire federalized? Franz Ferdinand got his wish in the end?
Yeah, that should have been Poles. Anyway, yes, the Empire federalises, sort of. But it's not going to be easy or clean.
 
Yeah, that should have been Poles. Anyway, yes, the Empire federalises, sort of. But it's not going to be easy or clean.
So empire survives? Sorry im thick i didn't get alot of the update as again im thick.

Did the hungarian aristocracy atleast get backs broken then allowing for hungarian supremecy to die.

Does hun refer to hungarians to germans?
 
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So empire survives? Sorry im thick i didn't get alot of the update as again im thick.

Did the hungarian aristocracy atleast get backs broken then allowing for hungarian supremecy to die.

Does hun refer to hungarians to germans?

As a hungarian: the hungarian aristocracy was not a nice bunch at this period but their nationalism and patriotism was the kind that propagated assimilation instead of ethnic cleansing and genocide - even after the war and th loss of 2/3 of the country. The bad reputation they have for oppression before WWI ment in realiry the sabotaging of schools and clubs of national minorities and after 1907 forcing the teaching of hungarian. There was no violance from either side - meaning the aristocrats and the national minorities as well.

Looking at this update I dont think that the hungarian aristocrats are in charge of Hungary - which is ASBish. As practically every country in the interwar period in the region Hungary was not free of the nasties who would be ready to commit atrocities like this but the aristocrats are not among them. Dont get me wrong they had their share of horrible people but i think that the aristocrats would not activly participate, not even to give the orders - standing aside and not doing anything to stop it is more in line with them.
 
As a hungarian: the hungarian aristocracy was not a nice bunch at this period but their nationalism and patriotism was the kind that propagated assimilation instead of ethnic cleansing and genocide - even after the war and th loss of 2/3 of the country. The bad reputation they have for oppression before WWI ment in realiry the sabotaging of schools and clubs of national minorities and after 1907 forcing the teaching of hungarian. There was no violance from either side - meaning the aristocrats and the national minorities as well.

Looking at this update I dont think that the hungarian aristocrats are in charge of Hungary - which is ASBish. As practically every country in the interwar period in the region Hungary was not free of the nasties who would be ready to commit atrocities like this but the aristocrats are not among them. Dont get me wrong they had their share of horrible people but i think that the aristocrats would not activly participate, not even to give the orders - standing aside and not doing anything to stop it is more in line with them.
My main grip with hungarian aristocracy is that they refused to allow reform. The empire couldn't survive because of their privileges and need to protect them. No federation or development of a stronger state body could happen as hungarians stopped it at all times.

For austria Hungary to survive in my opinion they need to have no power.
 
My main grip with hungarian aristocracy is that they refused to allow reform. The empire couldn't survive because of their privileges and need to protect them. No federation or development of a stronger state body could happen as hungarians stopped it at all times.

For austria Hungary to survive in my opinion they need to have no power.

This is a question I have been thinking of quite some time. The problem as I see it and however bad it may sound boils down to these facts:
1. The different development of Austria and Hungary. Vienna and Budapest might be not far away from each other but the 2 countries were 2 different worlds.
2. The Ausgleich was made after the realisation of the germans that they cant have a centralized empire. They cant dominate it. The original idea behind the ausgleich was this: the germans accept the hungarians rule in Hungary and can dominate what was left of the Empire - the Austrian part. Look at the original election system of the austrian part: it was designed with the intention to give as much power to the germans as possible.
3. In Austria this did not work and the national minorities got the upper hand and this - the complet failure of the germans to dominate Austria - was what led to an universal suffrage there. Today its lauded as a great achievment but at the time on the part of the german austrians it was their ultimate failure.
4. OTOH and as bad this may sound before the war the hungarian system was working. The absence of any serious level of violence within hungary ment that the hungarian elit felt no strong pressure to change the system. To tell the truth the pressure for change was greater from socialist than nationalist side. They could have acted with huge foresight but its incredibly rare in history to find groups with power who willingly gave up those powers because they thought that they might get in to trouble for them much later on.
5. Reasons for 3-4. were the facts that in Hungary the only group with money and significant aristocracy (they were very important in running the state, had influence, money and you basically couldnt create a constitution were they had no power) were the hungarians (the croatians too but they had their separate pairlament). In Austria the Czech and the poles had both money and aristocracy and thus acces to power.
6. The hungarian aristocracy was obsessed with traditional borders. To demonstrate this: during WWII the northern half of Transylvania was given back to Hungary by a decision of Germany. A significant number of the hungarian aristocracy hated the division of Transylvania. Not how it was divided but the fact that it was divided. Some of them would have rather seen it as a part of Romania than divided. You have to understand this when you propose federalization. Granting the national minorities demands within hungary, maybe creating subdivisions of the country that are still at least nominally under the hungarian crown would be infinitly more acceptable to them than completly redrawing the borders and creating new states.

The sad thruth is that before the war the Austrian side of the state was already badly in need of federalization (it is another question how you hope to resolve the question of Bohemia between the czech and sudeten germans). The hungarian side was not. For Hungary the question of national minorities were only 1 of the important questions and not even the most pressing one. The war acted as a huge catalyzator and changed everything but without it I think that Hungary would have passed a voting reform that would have been designed in a way to significantly increase the number of voters in and at the same time still denied voting rights to the vast majority of national minorities. They were working on something akin of this before the war. And thanks to the social structure of the country I also dont think impossible.
 
. OTOH and as bad this may sound before the war the hungarian system was working. The absence of any serious level of violence within hungary ment that the hungarian elit felt no strong pressure to change the system
Well isn't because outside Budapest, hungary was not developed. Czechs, poles and other minorities were better educated and had more economic power. The empire industry was mostly located outside hungary. When modernity does come austrians atleast got minorities happy, hungary cannot develop if it wishes to keep the system. Moreover the army and state government suffered from hungarian belief of there system.
 
Well isn't because outside Budapest, hungary was not developed. Czechs, poles and other minorities were better educated and had more economic power. The empire industry was mostly located outside hungary. When modernity does come austrians atleast got minorities happy, hungary cannot develop if it wishes to keep the system. Moreover the army and state government suffered from hungarian belief of there system.

In big part yes, but not completly. In Hungary those with money on the onset of the 19th century were the nobility, jews in some cities and some of the germans. At this point most of the nobility did not speek hungarian - they spoke latin, german and the local language spoken on and around their estates. But they did identify as hungarian and when that suddenly required that they spoke hungarian they went and learned it (the vast majority of them). Because of this for example the formerly slovakian speaking part of the nobility mostly disappeared and became hungarian - same with the rest. Also during the 19th century a lot of the jews decided to adopt hungarian as their language - a great part on how Budapest became a hungarian speaking city. This ment that by the time we reach the Ausgleich the vast majority of those with money and influence spoke and identified as hungarians.
 
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