WI: No Panzer IV?

[SealTheRealDeal]

Say the Germans decide to standardize on the Panzer III, and leave the Panzer IV's initial role to Panzer IIIs that had been fitted with the short 75mm gun (as were created later on iOTL).

What does Germany make in response to the T-34 in lieu of already having a tank that could be fitted with a long 75mm gun (in a turreted arrangement).

 

[marathag]

Say the Germans decide to standardize on the Panzer III, and leave the Panzer IV's initial role to Panzer IIIs that had been fitted with the short 75mm gun (as were created later on iOTL).

What does Germany make in response to the T-34 in lieu of already having a tank that could be fitted with a long 75mm gun (in a turreted arrangement).

Pretty much OTL,
Daimler Benz idea is too close to the T-34, so you get the Panther from MAN.
The only thing different is that without building the Mk IV, what would Krupp be building?

OTL they dropped out of the Contract for the Panther. no prototype --not even drawings
Now they may wish to try harder for the Mk V Panther in this TL

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Pretty much OTL,
Daimler Benz idea is too close to the T-34, so you get the Panther from MAN.
The only thing different is that without building the Mk IV, what would Krupp be building?

OTL they dropped out of the Contract for the Panther. no prototype --not even drawings
Now they may wish to try harder for the Mk V Panther in this TL

Wouldn't they need to get something out before the OTL Panther debut? Might the VK30 program actually produce something in the 30 ton range, rather than experience the weight inflation of OTL? Or might a VK20 design be accepted as an interim tank?

 

[marathag]

Wouldn't they need to get something out before the OTL Panther debut? Might the VK30 program actually produce something in the 30 ton range, rather than experience the weight inflation of OTL? Or might a VK20 design be accepted as an interim tank?

The Mk IV was the winner of the VK20 program.
My guess is the Krupp would make due in just making turrets. I don't see the combat results in Poland and France being all that different than OTL with the Mk III with 37mm and short 75mm.
So to me, you will still get the growth from the prewar 30 ton Durchbruchswagen to the VK30 that would drift into the VK36 befor stopping at the VK45 and the Tiger.

Now it really would have made sense for them the build something like the VK30.01 (H) in 1940,

while sorting out what would be the Tiger, while Barbarossa feeds directly to what would be the Panther

 

[Rickshaw]

No Panzer IV? The Germans would be up shit creek without a paddle. The Panzer III was when they mounted a L/24 75mm gun in Ausf N version at the end of it's tether. The Panzer III would not mount a L/43 or L/48 75mm gun. The turret ring was large enough but it couldn't carry sufficient armour to make the exercise worthwhile. It would not be able to survive a battle against a T-34 or a KV-1.

 

[Michele]

Say the Germans decide to standardize on the Panzer III, and leave the Panzer IV's initial role to Panzer IIIs that had been fitted with the short 75mm gun (as were created later on iOTL).

What does Germany make in response to the T-34 in lieu of already having a tank that could be fitted with a long 75mm gun (in a turreted arrangement).

They change their mind and do produce an uparmored, upgunned Pz IV while they work on the Panther.

The reality of German tank production was that any production line that was up and running kept churning out whatever chassis it could (yes, that includes Pz II and even limited batches of Pz I vehicles). The Germans do have Pz IV lines that were producing the support tank short-barrelled version, and even in a situation in which they initially decide not to upgrade it as a tank, they sure as hell won't close the lines down; they'll be using those lines for tank destroyers, assault guns, SP artillery, whatever, on a Pz IV chassis.
So they backtrack and produce the OTL Pz IV later variants.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I suspect that the need to have a decent 75mm ATG will result in a series of 'Tank Destroyer' type vehicles

That is PZIII, Beute Panzer and PZIV given the larger unarmored turret or gun shield only type setup with a 40/48 cal 75mm and very likely 50mm guns

I suspect a smorgasbord of designs - pretty much as per WW2 but no long gunned PZIV

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

The Germans do have Pz IV lines that were producing the support tank short-barrelled version,

No, they don't. In the op I stated that the Panzer III armed with the short 75mm has been selected for this role. In case I was clear, the Krupp bid for the support tank failed (thus the premise of the thread, no Panzer IV).

That said, the Panzer IV design still exists, and could be given another look (as could Krupp's entry to the VK20 project, itself essentially a product improved Panzer IV).

 

[Michele]

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

 

[pjmidd]

I suspect that the need to have a decent 75mm ATG will result in a series of 'Tank Destroyer' type vehicles

That is PZIII, Beute Panzer and PZIV given the larger unarmored turret or gun shield only type setup with a 40/48 cal 75mm and very likely 50mm guns

I suspect a smorgasbord of designs - pretty much as per WW2 but no long gunned PZIV

Or a load of StuG III's just like OTL.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Or a load of StuG III's just like OTL.

How quickly were the STUGs brought into production?

And did they not use Pz III hulls?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

How quickly were the STUGs brought into production?

And did they not use Pz III hulls?

I just looked

They were already using them as SPAGs with the same L24 75mm that teh early PZIVs had but in the Spring of 1942 they started arming them with the L43 75mm and later on the longer L48 75mm.

So possibly earlier given the POD

 

[thaddeus]

They were already using them as SPAGs with the same L24 75mm that teh early PZIVs had but in the Spring of 1942 they started arming them with the L43 75mm and later on the longer L48 75mm.

So possibly earlier given the POD

the "crash" program would have to be casemate "tanks" and SPGs, I know they have a lot of drawbacks with the former but the latter might be an unexpected advantage?

just thinking of early Wespe and a 150mm (or larger) on Tiger chassis

 

[Cryhavoc101]

the "crash" program would have to be casemate "tanks" and SPGs, I know they have a lot of drawbacks with the former but the latter might be an unexpected advantage?

just thinking of early Wespe and a 150mm (or larger) on Tiger chassis

There was a large number of Beute Tanks (Mostly French) that were used as SPGs for example

I could see them getting a quick long 50mm and sent in as a quick fix

 

[BlackDragon98]

Panzer III/IV?
With some serious sloped front armor it could last until 1942 without upgrades.
And it could mount the 75mm long.
Panzer III ends up as a short 75mm infantry support while the Panzer III/IV becomes what the Panzer IV is OTL.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I also think it's worth noting that the long 50mm will be more than sufficient for for the majority of what the Germans will be facing well into 1942. Against the few KV-1s and T-34s they encounter in the initial thrust of Barbarossa they can still rely on leading them over to where an 88 can deal with it.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I'm no designer, but I would imagine that they would rework the Panzer III design as much they could to incorporate as much as they could of the planned Panzer IV upgrade, that you end up with bastardised Panzer III sub-designs that you might call variants of Panzer IV by another name

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I'm no designer, but I would imagine that they would rework the Panzer III design as much they could to incorporate as much as they could of the planned Panzer IV upgrade, that you end up with bastardised Panzer III sub-designs that you might call variants of Panzer IV by another name

well, hopefully (unlike the PzIII/IV proposal of otl) they keep the PzIII's torsion bar suspension.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I also think it's worth noting that the long 50mm will be more than sufficient for for the majority of what the Germans will be facing well into 1942. Against the few KV-1s and T-34s they encounter in the initial thrust of Barbarossa they can still rely on leading them over to where an 88 can deal with it.

The problem of the long 50mm gun is that they relied on tungsten rounds to achieve their penetration of the T-34 at 500m.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The problem of the long 50mm gun is that they relied on tungsten rounds to achieve their penetration of the T-34 at 500m.

I seem to recall that many tanks were upgunned from the 37mm to the 50mm over the winter of 42 in order to deal with the heavier Russian tanks and then this gun was still found wanting verses the KV1 and T34 during the Spring and Summer.

Luckily for the Axis at the time the PZIII was an easier tank for its crew to 'fight' and coupled with the high quality crews along with superior ergonomics and better visibility and sights were able to muddle through.