Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot

The Romans don't have the ability to project force like that. It's not like India is underpopulated like much of the Mediterranean was when the Greeks established their far flung colonies.

Seizing Socotra and maybe Qeshm depending on what happens in this upcoming war would be the limit.

The cities of the Red Sea coast would be well within their reach however.

So the Portuguese can do it but not Rome that is far more powerful than it ever was historically and more advanced in virtually all respects than Portugal. Rome can easily seize some trading towns in India and anywhere short of China and even that not for long, they have steam ships, not sure if gunpowder yet but they are getting there. Opium Wars or something like them can be a thing soon enough, depends on how Hecatee wants to play it, He has had the Chinese wake up to the fact they are not quite the center of the universe and modernize a bit to give Rome any viable competition or that is his plan in my estimation.

The issue for Rome is not taking land, but holding land. Rome can take easily some towns in India like the Portuguese and others took places like Goa, taking the whole land... now that is a challenge they are not ready for, yet.
 

Hecatee

Donor
So the Portuguese can do it but not Rome that is far more powerful than it ever was historically and more advanced in virtually all respects than Portugal. Rome can easily seize some trading towns in India and anywhere short of China and even that not for long, they have steam ships, not sure if gunpowder yet but they are getting there. Opium Wars or something like them can be a thing soon enough, depends on how Hecatee wants to play it, He has had the Chinese wake up to the fact they are not quite the center of the universe and modernize a bit to give Rome any viable competition or that is his plan in my estimation.

The issue for Rome is not taking land, but holding land. Rome can take easily some towns in India like the Portuguese and others took places like Goa, taking the whole land... now that is a challenge they are not ready for, yet.
They do indeed have steamships, but not really for ocean going purpose (yet) but no gunpowder has been seen in the TL (on purpose for I did not want to give the Romans that advantage, i'm not looking for 21st century in the 5th ;) ).
As for China I must confess that my main plan was to delay OTL's Han's collapse by a few decade to spread some issues which OTL came about simultaneously and stimulated the 3rd century roman crisis. This has also side effects on the nomadic tribes of the steppes, which have earlier battles with the Romans and fight against somewhat stronger Chinese, leading to lower demography later on and thus potentially less great hordes ready to rule the world...
 
So the Portuguese can do it but not Rome that is far more powerful than it ever was historically and more advanced in virtually all respects than Portugal. Rome can easily seize some trading towns in India and anywhere short of China and even that not for long, they have steam ships, not sure if gunpowder yet but they are getting there. Opium Wars or something like them can be a thing soon enough, depends on how Hecatee wants to play it, He has had the Chinese wake up to the fact they are not quite the center of the universe and modernize a bit to give Rome any viable competition or that is his plan in my estimation.

The issue for Rome is not taking land, but holding land. Rome can take easily some towns in India like the Portuguese and others took places like Goa, taking the whole land... now that is a challenge they are not ready for, yet.
I suggested it earlier but a Roman Sri Lanka is not beyond the realms of possibilities. Especially if it is a stepping stone from Socotra and East Africa
 
So the Portuguese can do it but not Rome that is far more powerful than it ever was historically and more advanced in virtually all respects than Portugal. Rome can easily seize some trading towns in India and anywhere short of China and even that not for long, they have steam ships, not sure if gunpowder yet but they are getting there.
Portuguese ships had cannons and were much more able to sail the open sea.
 

Hecatee

Donor
I suggested it earlier but a Roman Sri Lanka is not beyond the realms of possibilities. Especially if it is a stepping stone from Socotra and East Africa
I've thought about it, as well as Socotra and Zanzibar, but have (until now) decided against, once more due to the communication delay limit (cf. the map I posted some time ago on how much time information took to travel in the Empire), but my goal is not to have Rome rule the entire world, I sometime think I may have already gone somewhat ASB with tech development, and I want to keep this story in the realm of believable, which means in the realm of logistics :) I also believe Sri Lanka is too populated for a successful colonization by Rome.
 
I've thought about it, as well as Socotra and Zanzibar, but have (until now) decided against, once more due to the communication delay limit (cf. the map I posted some time ago on how much time information took to travel in the Empire), but my goal is not to have Rome rule the entire world, I sometime think I may have already gone somewhat ASB with tech development, and I want to keep this story in the realm of believable, which means in the realm of logistics :) I also believe Sri Lanka is too populated for a successful colonization by Rome.
Don't worry about about any Tech ASB nothing is really unbelievable. Roman Imperial armies never really had any rivals which it could feasible loose against when united and strong which your succession solution has solved.

The only ASB is the succession if you ask me the Romans were to family focused in everything they did to make it believable.
 
I've thought about it, as well as Socotra and Zanzibar, but have (until now) decided against, once more due to the communication delay limit (cf. the map I posted some time ago on how much time information took to travel in the Empire), but my goal is not to have Rome rule the entire world, I sometime think I may have already gone somewhat ASB with tech development, and I want to keep this story in the realm of believable, which means in the realm of logistics :) I also believe Sri Lanka is too populated for a successful colonization by Rome.

I agree that Socotra and Zanzibar are not going to be the scene of colonization straight away...... to be Roman especially in this context has nothing to do with ethnicity or political control rather the adoption of various practices and technologies. The 'State' even in this timeline has very little relation to the modern sense of the word, which your timeline I think shows quite well, so how could they stop anyone really determined to set up a colony or more likely a trading post where ever the locals are not strong enough to resist? East Africa was not dominated by Arab merchants because they were strong in terms of military power rather religious, technological, mercantile and cultural factors decided their control of the area. The spread of Jewish influence and mercantile power will I think mirror this process and end result by say around 600AD rather than 1400AD will be the same as OTL. One thing I have not seen discussed overmuch is what the Arab merchants made most of their cash from outside spices I.e. slaves. Slave trading to a Rome that had just had the eastern market closed due to war with Persia will be profitable hence expansion. If the Persians are intelligent enough they might hire pirates or pay for privateers to hinder the Indian Ocean trade so looking the other way for what they want with their new shiny naval tech would make sense. There are all kind of reasons other than an infantile need for the Romans to land in South America to suggest this to the Hecatee......
 
Hmm. I wonder, does the kingdom of Himyar convert to Judaism quicker in this TL? With a stymied Christianity could we see Jewish Arab migrations bent on "reclaiming" their "spiritual" homeland. How would Judaism and it's ancient practices change with it being now mostly made of converts?

Also we're almost at 100 pages.
 
Camp of the 3rd cohors of the X Fretensis legion, Hegra, Arabia Nabatanea, April 248

Hecatee

Donor
This post is the direct consequence of the visit of the Al Ula exhibit I saw this sunday at the Arab World Institute in Paris, a beautiful archeological exploration of a valley of western Saudi Arabia largely focused on its pre-islamic period including the nabatean city of Hegra, where inscriptions from a garrison of the III Cyrenaica legion have been found, including a nice altar dedicated to emperor Marcus Aurelius. Pictures I took in the exhibit are availlable in this Flickr Gallery. (my week-end in Paris also explains the shortness of the update, sorry...)

Without further ado, the update :

Camp of the 3rd cohors of the X Fretensis legion, Hegra, Arabia Nabatanea, April 248


The tribune Lucius Annius Pulcher would not be sorry to leave the damn place. Set outside the empire in the Nabatean city of Hegra, the camp of his cohors was a vexilation of the X Fretensis was a bit of an exception for Rome, born from the death of the old Nabatean kingdom in the time of the divine Trajan : too far to be integrated into the empire, the city of Hegra had remained autonomous while receiving a garrison of a few hundred mens from the legion based in Voltinia Capitolina.

Hegra was a strange place : important spot on the incense roads, it was at the head of a fertile valley some 23 leuga, around two days of march under the pitiless sun of the region, or rather under the frondaison of the palm trees that allowed other plants to grow without being burned by the rays of Phoebus.

Three main oasis dotted the valley, getting water from wells and underwater tunnels called Qanat by the locals, and the vexilation’s goal was to prevent them from being raided by desert nomads, which never happened…

In fact the tribune had never heard of any assignment as boring as that of Hegra. While the cliffside tombs, so similar to those of Petra, were impressive, you did not need to tour them more than once or twice.

Similarly discovering the oasis was an experience, as was learning of the secrets that made them so fertile, such as the numerous small channels conveying the water or the fact that vegetation was in fact planted in three layers, with the high palm trees providing shade and dattes, the medium height fruit trees and the vegetables, cereals or cotton plants at the lowest levels. But that too did not fill weeks and months of detachments, and he could not spend all of his time in the bath house built by his men, if only because there was not enough camel crap to burn to eat so much water…

Thus the orders that had arrived and which directed him to the port of Leuke Kome were welcome news even though he was not a fan of sea travel…

5dc51127f20d5a0c46c03b30.jpg


More on the exhibit : https://www.imarabe.org/en/expositions/alula-merveille-d-arabie
 

Hecatee

Donor
I agree that Socotra and Zanzibar are not going to be the scene of colonization straight away...... to be Roman especially in this context has nothing to do with ethnicity or political control rather the adoption of various practices and technologies. The 'State' even in this timeline has very little relation to the modern sense of the word, which your timeline I think shows quite well, so how could they stop anyone really determined to set up a colony or more likely a trading post where ever the locals are not strong enough to resist? East Africa was not dominated by Arab merchants because they were strong in terms of military power rather religious, technological, mercantile and cultural factors decided their control of the area. The spread of Jewish influence and mercantile power will I think mirror this process and end result by say around 600AD rather than 1400AD will be the same as OTL. One thing I have not seen discussed overmuch is what the Arab merchants made most of their cash from outside spices I.e. slaves. Slave trading to a Rome that had just had the eastern market closed due to war with Persia will be profitable hence expansion. If the Persians are intelligent enough they might hire pirates or pay for privateers to hinder the Indian Ocean trade so looking the other way for what they want with their new shiny naval tech would make sense. There are all kind of reasons other than an infantile need for the Romans to land in South America to suggest this to the Hecatee......

I don't see a private colonial initiative capture new lands for the empire, in my eye we may at most see what happened OTL in southern India, a (seasonal ?) installation of a few merchants in compounds inside existing cities.

As for pirates, the Sassanids are only looking landward.

Hmm. I wonder, does the kingdom of Himyar convert to Judaism quicker in this TL? With a stymied Christianity could we see Jewish Arab migrations bent on "reclaiming" their "spiritual" homeland. How would Judaism and it's ancient practices change with it being now mostly made of converts?

Also we're almost at 100 pages.

About the Himyar kingdom, yes probably if I don't have the Romans gobble it (which is currently not in my plans).
About page 100... I can't believe it, that's something for the famous timelines such as Fester's or Zeng He's, not mine :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
I
I don't see a private colonial initiative capture new lands for the empire, in my eye we may at most see what happened OTL in southern India, a (seasonal ?) installation of a few merchants in compounds inside existing cities.

As for pirates, the Sassanids are only looking landward.



About the Himyar kingdom, yes probably if I don't have the Romans gobble it (which is currently not in my plans).
About page 100... I can't believe it, that's something for the famous timelines such as Fester's or Zeng He's, not mine :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
I enjoy every update you write
 
I don't see a private colonial initiative capture new lands for the empire, in my eye we may at most see what happened OTL in southern India, a (seasonal ?) installation of a few merchants in compounds inside existing cities.

As for pirates, the Sassanids are only looking landward.

Colonialism is a disease communicable by way of greed and arrogance. Money, money, money where's the money and which groups did not have enough and then you will find those who have a desire to look elsewhere to get it? Yep I agree, no new lands for the Empire! A significant percentage of OTL colonialism was mercantile (Portuguese early empire outside of brazil was all merchants and no colony then the Dutch turned up....... so my suggestion would be that the Jewish merchant clans build a trade based empire in East Africa encourage the locals to either convert or integrate then when the area becomes profitable enough the Romans sail in raze the place then install various petty kinglets to remove the threat long term forwarding the development of the area through this contact.

The dynasty I would think be only capable of looking landward, however would its advisors (most from local sources) also do so given that trading concerns would run to the fore of the beucrats class

As regards the west coast never forget that the locals are capable (if they find large deposits or other trade items) of coming to the Romans at least overland the naval route could be established by finding the canaries etc then the west coast.
 

Hecatee

Donor

You make interesting suggestions, I'll keep them in mind, although I don't see them for this century yet. One element bothering me though in the roman tax on imports : given how high it is, only the highest revenue items are worth it and I don't really see any items in the area fitting the bill unless someone goes for coffee plantations... which would require more control than it is possible to get on the area.

About the Parthians and the sea, the thing is that they only have a few cities on the coast, which is riddled with unsanitary marshes, high cliffes and deserts : it seems that even Hormirzad (modern Bandar Abbas) was not a large port in ancient time. Also you must think about the issue of wood to build ships : pictures of the region I've seen mostly show shrubs, with threes few and far between... So while you may have some fishermen in small boats, you don't really have fleet material for long range pirating

On Africa's West Coast, the Canaries were known by the ancients, but not exploited. As for the overland road, as I think I said earlier it is a possibility but the Niger area is really a world appart from the Roman world and connecting the two is not really intuitive, even OTL, so for now I keep them appart :)

All this being said, keep the comments comming while I write the special page 100 extra (and extra long) update...
 
You make interesting suggestions, I'll keep them in mind, although I don't see them for this century yet. One element bothering me though in the roman tax on imports : given how high it is, only the highest revenue items are worth it and I don't really see any items in the area fitting the bill unless someone goes for coffee plantations... which would require more control than it is possible to get on the area.

About the Parthians and the sea, the thing is that they only have a few cities on the coast, which is riddled with unsanitary marshes, high cliffes and deserts : it seems that even Hormirzad (modern Bandar Abbas) was not a large port in ancient time. Also you must think about the issue of wood to build ships : pictures of the region I've seen mostly show shrubs, with threes few and far between... So while you may have some fishermen in small boats, you don't really have fleet material for long range pirating

On Africa's West Coast, the Canaries were known by the ancients, but not exploited. As for the overland road, as I think I said earlier it is a possibility but the Niger area is really a world appart from the Roman world and connecting the two is not really intuitive, even OTL, so for now I keep them appart :)

All this being said, keep the comments comming while I write the special page 100 extra (and extra long) update...

sounds good!!! any thoughts of the effects of the Han survival on the various nomad steppe peoples vis a vies migration patterns and such? for the period of your timeline it would be the Huns and other groups a few centuries later it would be the Magyars and the Bulgars plus associated Slavic peoples, the demographic factors especially with a lack of access to china would spur some movements regardless of how many barbarians were subjugated in the west. I believe they are mostly related to climate factors that increased industrial pollution from the Roman empire would not have affected much as yet.
 

Hecatee

Donor
sounds good!!! any thoughts of the effects of the Han survival on the various nomad steppe peoples vis a vies migration patterns and such? for the period of your timeline it would be the Huns and other groups a few centuries later it would be the Magyars and the Bulgars plus associated Slavic peoples, the demographic factors especially with a lack of access to china would spur some movements regardless of how many barbarians were subjugated in the west. I believe they are mostly related to climate factors that increased industrial pollution from the Roman empire would not have affected much as yet.

I've always been of the meaning that the nomadic tribes from the steppe would go south rather than West, and cause (at first) less trouble East (ie: to China) because that Empire got a boost of some 50/60 years in stability, but the Han will still fall (around now in fact...). Also note that demography-wise the tribes have earlier defeats in the West (see for instance the battles on the black sea coast at the end of Marcus Aurelius' rule) and in the East (stronger China for a time) so steppe population will be somewhat affected on the longer term.

Eastern and Central Europe will be unrecognizable in any case, first because of larger Roman presence lasting longer in a wider area and because the Germanic tribes not under direct control of Rome feel less pressure from the East and have more exposure to Rome, so they are not as "barbarian" as OTL and will keep more elements of Rome in their future.
 
I've always been of the meaning that the nomadic tribes from the steppe would go south rather than West, and cause (at first) less trouble East (ie: to China) because that Empire got a boost of some 50/60 years in stability, but the Han will still fall (around now in fact...). Also note that demography-wise the tribes have earlier defeats in the West (see for instance the battles on the black sea coast at the end of Marcus Aurelius' rule) and in the East (stronger China for a time) so steppe population will be somewhat affected on the longer term.

Eastern and Central Europe will be unrecognizable in any case, first because of larger Roman presence lasting longer in a wider area and because the Germanic tribes not under direct control of Rome feel less pressure from the East and have more exposure to Rome, so they are not as "barbarian" as OTL and will keep more elements of Rome in their future.

I like the potential of these butterflies. I understand you may not want to give too much away, but do you see a more united or less united Indian subcontinent emerging when all is said and done?
 

Hecatee

Donor
I like the potential of these butterflies. I understand you may not want to give too much away, but do you see a more united or less united Indian subcontinent emerging when all is said and done?
I don't know enough on the subcontinent's history to be sure, but as I understand it the Kushans are mostly in place as OTL, including the Kshaharatas as vassals, but those could be replaced by new steppes dynasties in the coming century as those would be boosted in strenght by their fear of the West. This could be bad for the Guptas, which I see as overall less successful against more powerful indo-scythians foes. This I see as advantageous to the Pallava dynasty, which I see as more powerful than OTL but I'm not sure wheter they'd use the opportunity to go North or South. All in all a somewhat less fragmented India, but not by much, and a more troubled North anyway.
 
pictures of the region I've seen mostly show shrubs, with threes few and far between... So while you may have some fishermen in small boats, you don't really have fleet material for long range pirating

On Africa's West Coast, the Canaries were known by the ancients, but not exploited. As for the overland road, as I think I said earlier it is a possibility but the Niger area is really a world appart from the Roman world and connecting the two is not really intuitive, even OTL, so for now I keep them appart :)

All this being said, keep the comments comming while I write the special page 100 extra (and extra long) update...

Just because there are only shrubs there now, doesn't mean there were only shrubs there then. The climate has changed a lot, even disregarding what we have done with our industry.

The Saraha was smaller back then too, and the Sahel larger. A lot more dry scrub land on the border. More oases and water sources.
 
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