Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

[ejpsan]

ITTL there has been no rise of Fascism and with the defeat of the Soviet Union, communism has been thoroughly discredited and that only leaves capitalism as the dominant economic force in the world.
What is the main competition is the Free Market Welfare State of Langism and the more of a Free Market Jungle with some restrictions of the United States.
The main thing that is being fought over is not world domination but increasing the market share of the each nation.
The biggest threat that seems to me is going to be a combination of nationalism, ethnocentric repression, border disputes that go hot, all with the added feature of corruption that will drive future conflicts that have the possibility of drawing in the major powers against their will and better judgement.

 

[Jinx999]

I tend to judge alternate histories by how firmly the authors thumb is on the scale after the initial change. However, one thing I've noticed is that a heavy thumb makes for a worse alternate history, but it also tends to produce better stories, maybe from the more coherent narrative, maybe from the interest of the author, maybe from the author having a story to tell and keeping the thumb on the scale to meet the story.

 

[Dan]

USA is in, or really just getting to grips with the cold war they're in with Germany.

Essentially, what we have is Germany taking OTL America's stupid luck and happenstance, while America ITTL is just average and dealing with the fall out from not correcting the mistakes that were corrected after WWII.

 

[Turrosh Mak]

ITTL there has been no rise of Fascism and with the defeat of the Soviet Union, communism has been thoroughly discredited and that only leaves capitalism as the dominant economic force in the world.

This is another thing that has kind of bugged me about this timeline. Marxism as an ideology is extremely hard (impossible?) to kill. It's like a vampire, even if you stake it and it is reduced to ashes, if you pour a little blood over it, it pops right back out of its grave. True believers always excuse the failures as "not true Marxism." I honestly think the best thing that ever happened for Marxism is the end of the Soviet Union, because it was no longer the ideology of the enemy.

I could go on a huge, multi-paragraph screed against Marxism, but I'll end with this. Every Marxist I've ever met saw himself being the guy at the top doling out the fruits of other men's labor. They never think they will be the bottom cog in the machine. If they did, they would never be Marxists to begin with.

 

[ejpsan]

While there will still be Marxists ITTL around mostly in academic circles, without the 40 plus years of the Soviet Union supporting revolutionary movements in the former colonies of Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Portugal, the Marxist leaders of those new countries don't get in to power.
With Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT winning the Chinese Civil War and with the presumably deaths or long incarnation of the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party another powerful communist country doesn't happens.
ITTL Kim il Sung is killed as a bandit in the aftermath of the German offensive in The Pacific War.
Fidel and Raul Castro have been killed in the Mexican Intervention.
So the main drivers of the IOTL International Communist Movement have been basically butterflied away.
I asked earlier about if the Baader-Meinhof Red Army Faction will appear ITTL as a way for disaffected upper middle class students to bring some misdirected meaning to their lives in a very unhealthy way.

 

[RanulfC]

ITTL there has been no rise of Fascism and with the defeat of the Soviet Union, communism has been thoroughly discredited and that only leaves capitalism as the dominant economic force in the world.
What is the main competition is the Free Market Welfare State of Langism and the more of a Free Market Jungle with some restrictions of the United States.
The main thing that is being fought over is not world domination but increasing the market share of the each nation.
The biggest threat that seems to me is going to be a combination of nationalism, ethnocentric repression, border disputes that go hot, all with the added feature of corruption that will drive future conflicts that have the possibility of drawing in the major powers against their will and better judgement.

Actually Fascim or something like it could still rise as it's not been discredited, similarly while "Soviet Communism" has failed Socialism can still be validly argued. Especially since Germany (along with the rest of Europe, and many nations around the world by example) has actualy adopted some aspects. I'll grant that this would make the US in any TL nervous but having the "Kraut" scare be a reason the US hasn't tried to fix it's obvious problems when they did so OTL with bigger and more justified "Red" scares doesn't make a lot of sense.

My main problem is the US as portrayed should either never be in the position it's in. What we have is a US with the arrogance that OTL was born winning WWI and WWII in a nation that has not earned or learned it.
(Most of those afore mentioned 'short-sighted' political decsions should have precluded America being among the 'great powers' in the first place or they would have resulted in America never going places it is shown going. The Atomic Bomb being a perfect example. IF America had invested in the project to the extend to be near having a working implosion bomb then they'd already have nuclear reactors with both commecial and military application. Full stop. Not only that but if the implosoin bomb failed it's no big deal they simply keep plugging away at reduced funding and support maybe but the US would already be making gun-type bombs because THOSE work and we know they do. Need demonstration ok we light one off and it WILL work. If if doesn't it IS sabatoge and it will be found out and stopped. Again full stop. The implosion bomb was originally just a side track since it was clear a plutonium gun-type wasn't possible. They litterally had to figure out something to do with the plutonium they were producing. The uranium gun-type couldn't NOT work it was that simple and straight forward. And again the US would have a large lead in reactor design and development, it can't produce plutonium without it)

America can't develop the "Free Market Jungle with some restrictions" because it wasn't on the side that 'won' WWI. The Entente can't repay their loans, the US economy goes into a slump and the 'roaring 20s' never happen. (Prohabitoin probably still does though) So the US is already struggling going into the Great Depression which actually probably isn't as bad as OTL because less of the world finances are flowing through banks in the US. US "free market policy" therefor has to change and this IS in fact reflected since the US 'gives up' South America to Germany when the idea and ideal of the Monroe Doctrine are still in full force. So to it can be assumed that the US also gives up on markets in China, (so now Japan has no cause to go to war over lack of oil so in TTL they should have just kept beating on China till their economy collapsed) and accellerated independence to the Phllipeans. At worst there may have been a resurgence of the "Yankee Trader Period" where American business aggressivly sought out forgeign markets but really that wouldn't make sense as America OTL and this TTL should have had a better arrow(s) in it's quiver. Mass production (since that still happens for the ramp up to TTL's WWI win-or-lose) and marketing. Germany may provide high quality LOW QUANTITY goods but America as a supplier is cheaper and more abundant. (Germany never managed to get it's manufacturing system into high production in WWI and TTL that didn't significantly change. Germany made fewer but higher quality goods as did most of Europe only the US built its' industry for the war with quantity as the main goal)

What you'd end up with is Germany having its way with the high-end goods market with things shaking down from there to the "cheap American knock-offs" that aren't so much a knock off as it may seem. And on top of this the American's should keep inovating and inventing. I mentioned this before but swept wings and supersonic flight were being discussed and researched in America by NACA in the late 20 and mid 30s OTL independent of German research. Jet engines were being looked and rockets were further advanced that in Germany. The difference is TTL's Germany has a better economy and more stable government but that actually means it is LESS likely Von Braun-et-al get any funding. Rockets were correclty seen as pretty useless outside a limited tactical role due to accuracy and manufacturing problems. The only reason he go funding OTL and much interest was to avoid the restrictions on artillary from OTL's Versailles Treaty. That doesn't happen there's no real reason to develop them as artillary is far more accurate and powerful. (You "might" get rocket assisted artillary and you'll probably get rocket artillary for tactical use but "big" rockets are pretty much a 'waste' prior to the atomic bomb)

The thead has stupid political decsions which only have limited effect and don't follow through, leading to more stupid decisions that don't make sense in context and are frankly impossible for any civilized nation to make and still be considered a civilized nation. (NO I'm NOT going to let that one go)

The STORY is great though so I've gotten to the point of shutting up and reading on but lets be honest here, the US is the "bad" guy and Germany the "good" guy and they will inevitably fight and the US lose and be remade in Germany's image. Whatever it takes to keep them at odds till that happens is going to be what the US does and that's that. The US will only be able to copy (badly) what Germany is doing and it will continue to make bad and stupid descions until it's finally destroyed and rebuilt. That's the only way it can be and for the story it makes sense and again, I'll live with it.

Randy

 

[FBKampfer]

I don't think it's a given that Germany wins the stand off with the US. Even running on just its internal economy, the USA is still a manufacturing powerhouse, and it seems they're not far behind in most areas (computing being the big one).

USA has some good tanks, they make good fighters, good SAM's they've always made solid ships, and it sounds like they have one hell of an AShM.

And at the start, PM had said the trip to the Brandenburg gate was just taking one hell of a detour.

Besides, the "big guy wins the fight" is boring, and PM has been anything but boring so far.

 

[RanulfC]

I don't think it's a given that Germany wins the stand off with the US. Even running on just its internal economy, the USA is still a manufacturing powerhouse, and it seems they're not far behind in most areas (computing being the big one).

USA has some good tanks, they make good fighters, good SAM's they've always made solid ships, and it sounds like they have one hell of an AShM.

And at the start, PM had said the trip to the Brandenburg gate was just taking one hell of a detour.

Besides, the "big guy wins the fight" is boring, and PM has been anything but boring so far.

Phhfft, "Big Guy" nothing.. They have a Kat the US is toast

Randy

 

[holyknight]

In other words, not everyone who lives in the US is taking stupid pills.

No.

Merely there has been no Space Race with the Soviet Union, no profiting from the former Nazi scientists commanded by Werner Von Braun, and certainly not even REMOTELY the same injection of Billions worth of money to the Aeronautical investigation and development than in OTL.


I do not deny that those figures do possess the potential genius.

What I call to question is that the American Government wasted time in isolationism or other wrong policies in this timeline from the end of WWI to a few years AFTER WWII, and as such, they are behind in several fields, and their priorities have been skewed by a world view that its nearly alien to the rest of the world.

While many complain about the seemingly unrealistic behind position of the US here compared to the Germans, most seem to forget that while they have inventive figures in their history, they also progressed immensely from both circumstances that left them in the position of technological and industrial advantage, and... From the bounty of technology developed by other countries and individuals.......

This US didn't got here for a mint the best of the British and French research and licenses in exchange for producing stuff for them in WWII.

Neither they got stuff retro-enginneered from German technology or later produced by the experts from Nazi Germany in OTL.

Here the American Government and Companies are in a race to shorten the bridge gap between the German Corporations and their subsidiaries in the other Continents , something that has become a form of "Colonialism" that is actually slowly hurting the American Economy, as former markets between the end of WWII and the current date, have started to actually be PRODUCERS of stuff that the US sold to them before.

The Germans fell in account that no matter how much they expanded their production capabilities, they COULDN'T outproduce the US by themselves. Langism went to deal with the issue from another angle. Namely to profit from BUILDING UP the capabilities of other nations, to become capable of producing Licensed German Industry designs....the Main Corporations gain a percentage of the Profit and have influence in the branches, the Technical and industrial capabilities of those Third World Nations receive a massive build up, alongside the uplifting of the quality of life and spending , revenues for those governments, increasing of the education...

Its not Germany's Production against the US. In that aspect, its the combined production of Germany, AND the production of the Franchises in South Africa, AND Mexico, AND Argentina, AND in Vietnam, AND in Korea, AND wherever else the Germans have done deals to do this, with little loss of quality, AND a great percentage of saving in price when you can buy a German-Certified Product of near same Quality than the one built in Germany, at a similar or LOWER price.

The Americans, are basically being beaten by Outsourcing, with the Germans having Influence and gaining extensive influence and profits , also gaining favourable conditions world wide to the hour of new investments and developments in such nations. Moreover, the Americans are having to deal with the fact that outside a few nations, the NEW Status Quo its the one that the Germans imposed....meaning that their style of "Capitalism" its liable to get them the doors closed in the nose, where the other European nations are EMULATING the German Model of Economics....

Having individuals with the potential, also needs having the tools and technologies..... As those technologies advance and the timeline also advances, the cost of producing said technology also goes up exponentially in some cases if you're lacking the anterior technology baseline or the licensing in a free market world

 

[RanulfC]

No.

Merely there has been no Space Race with the Soviet Union, no profiting from the former Nazi scientists commanded by Werner Von Braun, and certainly not even REMOTELY the same injection of Billions worth of money to the Aeronautical investigation and development than in OTL.

The problem is that doesn't matter because in TTL the Germans had no real reason to spend the money either. The problem with your argument is that the US ALWAYS made bad decisions and short sighted (mostly political) choices. And it still didn't matter. We went isolationist after WWI but the thing to remember while out POLITICAL and MILITARY policy was isolationism our TRADE and SALES policy was anything but. Again, Germany companies entered into South America OTL as well but he US did not sit idly by while the did so. That is literally our backyard and we imperiously enforced the Monroe doctrine. We did the same thing with Germany and the rest of Europe in China.

Remove that and the US isn't the US anymore, plain and simple and it never get to the point it has. Further it's NOT just the US if we're getting down to details. England has made counter-intuitive and down right historically suicidal decisions as well as has France and most of the rest of Europe. TTL is exactly what England fought two world wars to prevent and they would never accept German hegemony. That's what happened.

Further the US was more often than not ahead not behind and while lack of funding did hold back deployment it rarely held back research which is why the US could leap ahead the way it always has. In most cases what we 'learned' from the "stolen" Germans after WWII was that we'd been on the right track. The emigres and refuges were a bonus not a necessity and that's what makes this TL so hard at times.

Your explanation would probably make sense if the US wasn't constantly being shown to HAVE both the capability and will to do what's needed but then for "some" reason it's not followed up which makes no sense. There isn't actually an "American model' of capitalism it comes down to what works and what doesn't. Actually in OTL is the only place where you'd see this progression suspended and that's because OTL at the end of WWII we'd become so used to being the model we didn't have any competitor so we became complacent. TTL it would never happen so the US industry never become stagnant.

There was and is a specific and valid reason no one wanted the US on the 'other' side of a conflict. When we commit, (and the plot of TTL is specifically an economic and power conflict which the US can NOT lose) then no one can match us. At the present moment in TTL the US still hasn't committed and frankly won't because it can't for 'reasons' and it's destined to lose the fight no matter what. Again, I can deal with it for the story because it's that good but please don't try and make excuses for it.

Randy

 

[HaroldWinthrop]

The 'historical institutionalist' (and non-American) take on why the US is not faring as well as our pro-American booster commenters above would like ITTL is as follows: Since the US was not at the table at the end of WWI or WWII negotiating a victor's peace (unlike IOTL), it has been unable to dictate the parameters of the "rules-based international order".

For a start, the League of Nations didn't fail, has considerable influence (ex-Chancellor Lang's role at the LoN ensured German support) and is still headquartered in the Old World, negating the need to establish the UN in the New World at the seat of American soft power. Similarly, the willingness of Germany's government to abide by the dictates of the LoN has seen it 'intervening' in world trouble spots under an LoN mandate ITTL in comparison to IOTL's unilateralist US Government's interventions in its own interests, with international backing seen as an afterthought. Importantly, as seen by Germany's 'police actions' in Spain, South Africa, Mexico, etc the Germans come to fight under an LoN mandate and once the fighting's over, the soldiers leave and the German direct investment and technology transfer comes later. An important aside in this comes from the early days of Tilo's service with the Marines in French Indo-China - his Viet Minh 'liaison' remarks on how the Germans are unlike the French in this respect.

Also, no Bretton Woods agreement means the global financial system has not been set up to benefit the United States and the USD is not the default currency of global trade. The German Mark is an important currency in global trade, but it's not the currency - possibly just the first among relative equals. Not sure about the structure of the global economy ITTL though and who make the rules and what the institutions are and where they're based.

A large part of the US' ascendancy IOTL from 1919 onwards is based on how it has been able to shape the global economic and political playing field to suit its needs. Here, Germany has seized the commanding heights and seems to be exercising its power ITTL with much more finesse and a softer touch than the US IOTL.

For whatever my opinion is worth, I think the timeline is an excellent one that presents a genuine, detailed and compelling view of an alternative 20th Century.

 

[Peabody-Martini]

Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Ninety-Eight


7th August 1962

Vladivostok, Russia

What Zella found when she had arrived in the Russian Far East was a series of boom towns, Vladivostok included. There had been visible change from when she had been through two years prior. The less welcome observation was Soren Yount. The Oberstabsfeldwebel had been sent by Hans von Mischner as a favor to Zella’s father with the stated purpose of keeping Zella from getting into any official trouble crossing the river that was the border between Russia and Korea.

At first Zella had been amused by what she had assumed would be Soren’s dismay at her as she walked her motorcycle off the rail platform. It turned out that Soren was completely unflappable. Somewhere along the line he had acquired a civilian Mercedes-Benz short-hood lorry that he was using to take a considerable amount of grey market contraband back to the headquarters of the 2nd Army Corps. There was still plenty of room for her motorcycle though. That meant that Zella’s arrival in Korea didn’t play out how she thought it would. She was sitting in the cab of the lorry, listening as Soren flipped shit to the Korean troops guarding the bridge. At some point, Soren handed one of them her passport, he glanced at her and then stamped it with no questions asked. It was then that it occurred to her that Soren must make this trip regularly and her father telling her that the entire military had to tolerate a certain amount of grift to function applied here. It wasn’t until she took a look at the map that Zella realized that there was a long drive down mountain roads. It was starting to rain, and Soren said it was a good thing they had four-wheel drive. So, it was probably just as well that she hadn’t tried to ride it by herself.

As Zella settled in, she looked out the window as rain danced across the window in the wind. It was an uncomfortably warm night, so having the windows up made the cab of the lorry feel like a sauna. Soren had turned on the radio, it was pop music that was obviously of a different sensibility than what Zella was used to. As Zella listened to the music and how it clashed in a discordant rhythm with the windshield wipers, she knew it was going to be an extraordinarily long night.


Potsdam, Germany

It was just like Rea to act without coming up with a plan. She had been trying to get the Americans to respond to her for months. Vicky had tried to warn her that she might not like it when they did but listening to others had never been something that Rea had ever been good at. Now, Rea was fuming and Japik was saying that it was the funniest thing that he had ever seen. The Americans certainly had her number, that much was for certain. They could have attempted to chase her off easily enough, but had done something else instead.

While Vicky did not approve of Japik, she found some of the things he was into to be unnatural, she did however like how he was able to get Rea to focus on one thing for more than five minutes. He certainly wasn’t afraid to tell her when she was acting stupid or was taking herself too seriously. This situation was no different from any of the many others that Rea had gotten herself wrapped up in. The Americans had given Rea a Civic Award for her efforts to achieve peace between their nations. Japik was reading out Rea’s extensive actual name as it had been put down on the plaque that she had been given. He found it funny.

“They only did this so that I’ll go away and stop bothering them” Rea said to Vicky in a language that only they could understand. It had only been a recent development that Vicky had heard the term Cryptophasia and it just showed exactly how distressed Rea was over these matters. She hadn’t talked this way since they had fallen out with each other. Japik looked at Rea, bewildered.

“You are missing the forest for the trees” Vicky replied in kind, “This is actually a sign of how your efforts have been successful.”

Rea gave Vicky a baneful look. She was too busy feeling sorry for herself to listen. It was the same as always, Rea had always loved theatrics and drama. Getting results was so foreign of an experience that she didn’t know how to handle it.

“You can understand that?” Japik asked.

“It’s just something that is what it is” Vicky replied, “It used to drive our mother insane.”

“Kat loved it though” Rea said, “She was disappointed when Tat and Kol didn’t do anything like that.”

“Despite everything else, the Gräfin is still a spy at heart” Vicky said, “Secret languages are the sort of thing that she adores.”

“You mean Lady Katherine, the Tigress?” Japik asked. He had seen the her at a distance but had never ventured too close. The stories that he had heard, it was hard to imagine her adoring anything.

“You need to get to know Kat” Rea replied, “Most of the things that people say about her simply aren’t true.”

“And don’t ever call her the Tigress where she might overhear” Vicky said, “She really doesn’t like being called that.”

 

[ejpsan]

ITTL the United States has a much lower debt to GDP ratio because it did not participate in OTL Second World War until the very end and that also means that taxes are overall lower because it did not need the massive amount of revenue to fight the war.
Another thing is the United States made a lot of money from the Waring nations as the need to balance between manufacturing weapons like tanks, fighters and bombers with the need for transport vehicles likes trucks and cargo planes.
The United States also produced enough agricultural products that kept Germany from going through another Turnip Winter and the humanitarian assistance that the United States gave during the second Stalin induced famine made it possible for the allies to continue their offensives against the Soviet Union.
Also the petroleum, oil, and lubricants that the United States sold to Germany and the allies made it possible for there to be full out offensives and more importantly allowed Germany to expand their domestic production without going on to draconian measures.
As for Post War economics, we must remember that it is not a Zero Sum Game where one nation gets richer and another nation becomes poorer, as an example Mexico is not going to be an exclusively German trading partner as the biggest free trade zone is just right over the border, Mexico will want to do business with the United States because it will be their biggest customer just as it is IOTL, the biggest change is that it will be a more equal partnership at this point ITTL then it was IOTL.
The United States without the Taft-Hartley Labor Act and the OTL expansion of manufacturing in the South make Mexico even more attractive for American businesses to shift production to escape high labor costs but the expansion of the Mexican economy also means that the United States can sell more goods and services to Mexico ITTL and that means everyone wins in the long run.
Also German and other countries will take advantage of Mexico status to set up manufacturing plants so they can sell to the United States.

 

[Wet Coast]

The Americans had given Rea a Civic Award for her efforts to achieve peace between their nations. Japik was reading out Rea’s extensive actual name as it had been put down on the plaque that she had been given. He found it funny.

Nice one. It's tough to keep being indignant and protesting when the very people you are protesting give you an award for said protests. And I imagine the ambassador will inform the press about this and milk it which has the added benefit of sic'ing the press on her.

 

[ferdi254]

I cannot fully understand the people who complain about how the USA is treated way too negatively here. Take the Manhattan project for example. That was started IOTL by a letter from Einstein who was asked by Fermi and Szilard to sent it to an internationalist president (Roosevelt) because of the threat the Nazis might get a nuclear weapon... Einstein, Fermi and Szilard all emigrated after the Nazis rose to power. So what could have possibly spurred the massive investment into a Manhattan project ITTL? And how do you get it done within the OTL timeframe without the massive influx of european scientists? So those who complain that it was sabotaged in an improbable way, my best guess is that ITTL the unrealistic part is that it was there at all (let alone finished according to the OTL timeframe).
And IOTL Russia managed to get some agents into that so why should Germany be unable to do so ITTL?

I see president Truman flying a B 707 even a bit earlier (IIRC) than it was available IOTL even without the massive boom the US aviation received IOTL WW II.
I see the USA being faster in space than IOTL even without paperclip and the staff from Germany.

What would hit the USA by now is the lack of the college program for the retiring soldiers, the lack of highly qualified emigrees from 1919 to 1960 and compared to Germany the fact that a large proportion of the population does not get any good education. A couple of very good inventors without the basis of engineers and qualified workers to transform genius into industrial products won´t help.

And: ITTL Aspirin is still a German trademark, just to name one example.

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

America can't develop the "Free Market Jungle with some restrictions" because it wasn't on the side that 'won' WWI.

Before WW1 US was a country with an income concentration already comparable to 1990's where a few big corporations controlled the market and influenced the government to start invasions and wars in Asia and America like in Cuba war with Spain, remove independence movement in Philippines, invade Mexico, central American countries, Haiti, Dominican Republic and more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Income_Shares_of_Top_1%_and_0.1%_1913-2013.png

I don't think that will change, at least until Germany and it's allies start to be involved in TTL 40ies and 50ies.

In addition to that TTL Germany proper could have at least 100 millions of inhabitants plus another 30 or 40 from Poland, 10 from Czech Republic and 8 from Baltics. TTL USA will have roughly the same or even less without post WW2 baby boom.

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

ITTL the United States has a much lower debt to GDP ratio because it did not participate in OTL Second World War until the very end and that also means that taxes are overall lower because it did not need the massive amount of revenue to fight the war.

That also mean no increase of taxes for corporations in Roosevelt era to fund war and postwar education for veterans. Also means less income redistribution and in turn less medium class people to increase consumption and commerce and manufacturing.

With those factors together TTL USA will be a lot less rich and advanced that OTL.

 

[Turrosh Mak]

What would hit the USA by now is the lack of the college program for the retiring soldiers, the lack of highly qualified emigrees from 1919 to 1960 and compared to Germany the fact that a large proportion of the population does not get any good education. A couple of very good inventors without the basis of engineers and qualified workers to transform genius into industrial products won´t help.

And: ITTL Aspirin is still a German trademark, just to name one example.

Yes, no natural born American has done anything since 1940. Our wealth is all due to European immigrants. We wuz all inbred yokels until they showed up ... oh wait, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924 has something to say ...

That also mean no increase of taxes for corporations in Roosevelt era to fund war and postwar education for veterans. Also means less income redistribution and in turn less medium class people to increase consumption and commerce and manufacturing.

With those factors together TTL USA will be a lot less rich and advanced that OTL.

Governments do not create wealth. Good governments CAN create a stable environment in which wealth can grow. Bad governments stifle wealth creation. And while I'm not from the "all taxes are theft" camp, nothing kills wealth creation like "wealth redistribution". If the fruit of your labor can be taken from you because you "have more than this other person (for whatever reason)", the only sane response is to do the bare minimum so there is nothing to take.

Where there is surplus, wealth accumulates. In his book https://www.amazon.com/Great-Leveler-Inequality-Twenty-First-Princeton/dp/0691165025 Walter Scheidel makes the case that income equality is only achieved by war, disease, social collapse, and revolution. If you want the 10 minute version, watch this

 

[Rinasoir]

Yes, no natural born American has done anything since 1940. Our wealth is all due to European immigrants. We wuz all inbred yokels until they showed up ... oh wait, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924 has something to say ...



Governments do not create wealth. Good governments CAN create a stable environment in which wealth can grow. Bad governments stifle wealth creation. And while I'm not from the "all taxes are theft" camp, nothing kills wealth creation like "wealth redistribution". If the fruit of your labor can be taken from you because you "have more than this other person (for whatever reason)", the only sane response is to do the bare minimum so there is nothing to take.

Where there is surplus, wealth accumulates. In his book https://www.amazon.com/Great-Leveler-Inequality-Twenty-First-Princeton/dp/0691165025 Walter Scheidel makes the case that income equality is only achieved by war, disease, social collapse, and revolution. If you want the 10 minute version, watch this

Ok, I try to stay out of this discussion every time it comes up (roughly every time the US comes up in the story) because frankly the whole thing is a broken record, but well I just have to respond to this one.

Firstly, the Immigration Act of 1924 may not even exist in this story, so why you brought it up is a mystery to me. Secondly, Ferdi isn't saying no natural born American did anything post 1940, just that the people who migrated to the US because, well, the world was shite, more than likely have not done so because their lives are completely different. Also that the American workforce and academia hasn't benefitted from the extremely large boost it got from soldiers coming home from WW2 and Korea and taking full advantage of the GI Bill.

As for Amicus, they are arguing again that without WW2 and the frankly insane amounts of direct and indirect investment that the Federal Government did the US economy at this point in time likely to be a hell of a lot weaker. It still has a huge amount of potential, just it is going to take a lot of direction and effort to harness it, and frankly the US we have in this story is not capable of doing it without the world going to hell.

As for the rest of your argument over economic principle. Please don't. That sort of thing goes into the Chat forum, not here.

(Also to be snarky because I can, unless you happen to be 100% native American, then yes, your wealth and shit didn't show up until European immigrants )

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

Thank you. I wouldn't be able to explain better.