The question is as in the title. What if Henry VII and Elizabeth of York had only daughters produced from their marriage. That is to say, what if Prince Arthur and Henry VIII had been born as female rather than male, alongside their sisters Margaret and Mary. What consequences would this have had for England and the Tudor Dynasty? How would the Reformation in England have played out? Any other effects?
WI Henry VII of England had only daughters
- Thread starter Calthrina950
- Start date
The daughters he did have married into Scotland and France, but Arthur and Margaret are close enough in age that a female counterpart to Arthur (Edith, after Henry VII maternal great grandmother) would probably have matched up with James IV.
Let's say that Edith is also luckier than Arthur, doesn't die within a few months of the wedding, has several children and lives the equivalent life span to Margaret and dies further down the line.
Elizabeth of York likely lives longer as she isn't pressed into producing another spare, given Henry VII and Elizabeth have long since cone to terms with a daughter being monarch after.
Henry VII died in 1509, but Margaret Beaufort lived to age 68, so a healthier and not heartbroken Henry lives to 1524 and then dies. Edith becomes Queen suo jure, with her second husband as King jure uxoris.
Edith dies 1538, by which point her son James V only serves as King for four years before he dies, amd the heir of both Scotland and England is OTL Mary, Queen of Scots, only a handful of weeks old. A Regency occurs in Scotland, but England changes at the idea of not only a Scottish ruler, but a Scottish regent to a child Queen.
ITTL version of Margaret Douglas is offered the crown of England. But does she accept?
Let's say that Edith is also luckier than Arthur, doesn't die within a few months of the wedding, has several children and lives the equivalent life span to Margaret and dies further down the line.
Elizabeth of York likely lives longer as she isn't pressed into producing another spare, given Henry VII and Elizabeth have long since cone to terms with a daughter being monarch after.
Henry VII died in 1509, but Margaret Beaufort lived to age 68, so a healthier and not heartbroken Henry lives to 1524 and then dies. Edith becomes Queen suo jure, with her second husband as King jure uxoris.
Edith dies 1538, by which point her son James V only serves as King for four years before he dies, amd the heir of both Scotland and England is OTL Mary, Queen of Scots, only a handful of weeks old. A Regency occurs in Scotland, but England changes at the idea of not only a Scottish ruler, but a Scottish regent to a child Queen.
ITTL version of Margaret Douglas is offered the crown of England. But does she accept?
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The eldest daughter (who in no way will be called with a name different from Margaret so OTL Margaret will be named Elizabeth) will be married to James IV of Scotland and eventually will become Queen of England but I do not have many ideas for matches for the others (likely in order, Margaret, Elizabeth, Katherine, (Anne aka OTL Elizabeth) and Mary)
I don't know whether the Tudors would keep the throne, tbh. Only having daughters, in a country that's barely out of a civil war, could well be seen as a sign that the Tudors aren't the rightful monarchs. The De La Poles or the Stafford's might just have a shot at the throne here, especially if their heir marries Henry and EOY's eldest daughter.
As for Elizabeth of York, she's not going to be crowned, and I suspect she's going to die in childbirth earlier than OTL, as Henry VII will be desperate for a son who can carry the Tudor name, so will be impregnating her more regularly...
Names for the girls: Margaret, Elizabeth, Joan and Mary, I suspect, though Anne and Katherine are possible too.
As for Elizabeth of York, she's not going to be crowned, and I suspect she's going to die in childbirth earlier than OTL, as Henry VII will be desperate for a son who can carry the Tudor name, so will be impregnating her more regularly...
Names for the girls: Margaret, Elizabeth, Joan and Mary, I suspect, though Anne and Katherine are possible too.
I imagine Henry VII would be cagier about marrying his sisters-in-law off ITTL, given he hasn't secured his position with multiple sons.
Would the de la Poles potentially try something earlier here given Henry's shakier reign, rather than just booking it to the continent in 1501?
Would the de la Poles potentially try something earlier here given Henry's shakier reign, rather than just booking it to the continent in 1501?
It is possible that, if the Lovell-Stafford Rebellion was delayed long enough for Arthur to be born a girl ITTL and Henry hence refused to crown Elizabeth of York, that they might get some more support, or that Stoke Field is a stronger rebellion, I suppose.
A potential kid list for Henry & Elizabeth (all girls), feel free to critique
Henry VII (b.1557 r.1585 d.1509) m. Elizabeth of York (b.1466 m.1486 d.1503)
Henry VII (b.1557 r.1585 d.1509) m. Elizabeth of York (b.1466 m.1486 d.1503)
- Margaret (1486 - 1547) m. James IV of Scotland (b.1473 r.1499 d. 1524)
- James (1505 - 1565)
- Henry (1507 - 1508)
- Margaret (1510 - 1513)
- Elizabeth (1513 - 1549)
- Alexander (1514- 1553)
- Robert (1519)
- Henry (1524 - 1584)
- Elizabeth (1489 - 1525) m. Friedrich, Elector of Saxony (b.1463 r. 1486 d.1525)
- Friedrich (1507 - 1566)
- Elisabeth (1511 - 1520)
- Ernest (1515 - 1579)
- Margaret (1516)
- Anna (1518 - 1521)
- Catherine (1522 - 1556)
- Mary (1491 - 1536) m. Christian II of Denmark (b.1481 r. 1513 d.1559)
- John (1510 - 1566)
- Dorothea (1511 - 1527)
- Henry (1512 - 1527)
- Christian (1518)
- Christina (1518 - 1520)
- Anne (1492 -1495)
- Katherine (1496 - 1541) m. Miguel da Paz, King of Spain (b. 1498 r.1504, 1516, 1521 d. 1566)
- Isabel (1517 - 1520)
- Catalina (1521 - 1589)
- Manuel, Prince of Portugal (1523 - 1531)
- Maria (1524 - 1552)
- Margaret (1526 - 1531)
- Miguel (1528 - 1595)
- Ferdinand (1530 - 1604)
- Manuela (1534)
- Joan (1499 - 1500)
- Cecily (1503)
I think FalconHonour has it correct in post #5. If Henry Vii sticks to his "ruling by right of conquest", there is nothing to keep another relative (or even just someone like the Kingmaker) from wresting the throne from the Tudors. And then there is always the "kidnap the heiress and compromise her" which make the villain her husband to avoid shame (on her and the Tudors). Remember Bothwell and Mary, Queen of Scots, folks.
Having won the English throne, is H7 going to give it away to another country? I doubt it, since that makes waste of all his efforts to get the throne. H7 might as well have stayed on the continent. He may well wed eldest daughter to some high-ranking Englishman (perhaps a wannabe King) and designate THEIR sons as heirs to the throne (how that works after H7 dies is another TL altogether).
Having won the English throne, is H7 going to give it away to another country? I doubt it, since that makes waste of all his efforts to get the throne. H7 might as well have stayed on the continent. He may well wed eldest daughter to some high-ranking Englishman (perhaps a wannabe King) and designate THEIR sons as heirs to the throne (how that works after H7 dies is another TL altogether).
That can work. James IV of Scotland is the only possible foreign candidate for the heiress
J4 won't be given England by H7. Same problem as marrying the girl(s) to a prince in the continent, England falls to a foreign ruler.
And weren't England and Scotland on bad terms, since Scotland had such ties to France. Double problem for foreign rule.
And weren't England and Scotland on bad terms, since Scotland had such ties to France. Double problem for foreign rule.
Why wouldn't they just propose an English regent? The crowns being in personal union doesn't mean the regencies have to be in personal union.
I very much doubt that the heiress presumptive would be married abroad to a reigning or future king. Leaving aside the question of a union of crowns, having the heir to the throne residing abroad would be right out. Margaret and Mary were married to foreign kings, but only after Arthur and Henry were born and Arthur was married.
Margaret might be married to a foreign prince, but it would be a younger son or nephew, not a king or heir.
Her marriage makes a lot of political difficulties regardless. Will she be designated future queen regnant? Or will it be assumed that her husband will be king suo uxoris? If she is to marry an English nobleman, there will be a huge struggle over which family gets the brass ring. Henry won't want to commit his permanent favor to one faction, but he can't avoid it.
Unless he finds a foreign husband. Said foreigner probably could be fobbed off with a meaningless co-kingship. Where from? France has lots of spare dukes and princes, but the Hundred Years War is still fresh. Germany? It might be easier to find a candidate who is more of a space-filler. There'd be less fear of the consort's home country's influence if the chap was a Saxon or Brandenburger.
Margaret might be married to a foreign prince, but it would be a younger son or nephew, not a king or heir.
Her marriage makes a lot of political difficulties regardless. Will she be designated future queen regnant? Or will it be assumed that her husband will be king suo uxoris? If she is to marry an English nobleman, there will be a huge struggle over which family gets the brass ring. Henry won't want to commit his permanent favor to one faction, but he can't avoid it.
Unless he finds a foreign husband. Said foreigner probably could be fobbed off with a meaningless co-kingship. Where from? France has lots of spare dukes and princes, but the Hundred Years War is still fresh. Germany? It might be easier to find a candidate who is more of a space-filler. There'd be less fear of the consort's home country's influence if the chap was a Saxon or Brandenburger.