I have always wondered this. Could a reaction to Communist elements have sparked it? FDR getting killed by Zangara and the Depression worsening? Who would be the leader of such a movement? Fritz Kuhn? Lindbergh? Father Coughlin? MacArthur? William Dudley Pelley?
How could the U.S. have gone Fascist realistically before WWII?
- Thread starter Bullmoose713
- Start date
Tough, very tough, and fascism is probably not the name.
Have McKinley avoid assassination, then Teddy goes for election in 1904 and 1908. Spark WWI at least two years early and have the US intervene much earlier. Teddy does a third term and then a fourth before dying in office from stress ike FDR, and the US is badly bloodied but ultimately victorious.
Then the Depression hits in like 1920 and the US elects Henry Ford while Germany goes communist under the Spartacists.
Basically you need to attack the existing strains in US society- race and class- and critically weaken US political liberalism by having a string of charismatic strongmen come to power and double down on authoritarian nationalism in the face of a real or perceived threat.
As to leader ls, Teddy is a candidate- he has the mindset, the ability, and the drive- but hed probably be more of a Sulla or a Marius than Caesar, someone paving the way for future demagogues. Henry Ford... considered running OTL and would probably be a trainwreck (dude was rabidly anti semitic).
Long would be a possible dictator but not a fascist, necessarily. Lindbergh... maybe?
You need a leader and a crisis and a lack of legitimacy for the state. The French Third Rwpublic, for all its instability, fell to external fascists rather than internal, due to lack of a strong, coherent movement. America is much much harder to overthrow than France.
Have McKinley avoid assassination, then Teddy goes for election in 1904 and 1908. Spark WWI at least two years early and have the US intervene much earlier. Teddy does a third term and then a fourth before dying in office from stress ike FDR, and the US is badly bloodied but ultimately victorious.
Then the Depression hits in like 1920 and the US elects Henry Ford while Germany goes communist under the Spartacists.
Basically you need to attack the existing strains in US society- race and class- and critically weaken US political liberalism by having a string of charismatic strongmen come to power and double down on authoritarian nationalism in the face of a real or perceived threat.
As to leader ls, Teddy is a candidate- he has the mindset, the ability, and the drive- but hed probably be more of a Sulla or a Marius than Caesar, someone paving the way for future demagogues. Henry Ford... considered running OTL and would probably be a trainwreck (dude was rabidly anti semitic).
Long would be a possible dictator but not a fascist, necessarily. Lindbergh... maybe?
You need a leader and a crisis and a lack of legitimacy for the state. The French Third Rwpublic, for all its instability, fell to external fascists rather than internal, due to lack of a strong, coherent movement. America is much much harder to overthrow than France.
Well, there was the supposed Business Plot in which Smedley Butler claimed a group of American businessmen offered to make him 'Secretary of General Affairs' had he participated in a coup against Roosevelt, but there is serious debate over whether or not that plot was legitimate.
Fascism attacks the legitimacy of the ruling government and it's ability to rule, so it would take something on the scale of a massive break down in social order before a large group of Americans start believing fascism to be a legitimate replacement for democracy.
Onto your candidates...
He was a Nazi, not a fascist. He was seen by the American government as an agent of the German government (which he was). I doubt many people would flock to him.
Maybe. He was a anti-Semite and a eugenicist, but I don't think he was a 'fascist'. He was more of a isolationist than a fascist. It just so happened that he wanted to be a isolationist from a war involving fascist dictatorships
This guy has more legitimate credentials than Kuhn or even Lindbergh. He was a religious figure, which could tap into the hearts of Americans more so than any other leader, though I should point out this guy was hated by the Vatican for his anti-Semitic screeds, so some people might feel apprehensive about supporting him.
Well, he cracked down upon the Bonus March without so much as a second thought under Hoover's orders, so I could definitely see him as the leader of a fascist government. He had a rough relationship with his commanders in chief, especially FDR, so I can see him having no love for parliamentary democracy.
Don't make me laugh. The guy was a loony, not to mention a fundamentalist Christian. I can see him being friends with Coughlin, but I think even Coughlin would want to keep Pelley at arms length.
Fascism attacks the legitimacy of the ruling government and it's ability to rule, so it would take something on the scale of a massive break down in social order before a large group of Americans start believing fascism to be a legitimate replacement for democracy.
Onto your candidates...
He was a Nazi, not a fascist. He was seen by the American government as an agent of the German government (which he was). I doubt many people would flock to him.
Maybe. He was a anti-Semite and a eugenicist, but I don't think he was a 'fascist'. He was more of a isolationist than a fascist. It just so happened that he wanted to be a isolationist from a war involving fascist dictatorships
This guy has more legitimate credentials than Kuhn or even Lindbergh. He was a religious figure, which could tap into the hearts of Americans more so than any other leader, though I should point out this guy was hated by the Vatican for his anti-Semitic screeds, so some people might feel apprehensive about supporting him.
Well, he cracked down upon the Bonus March without so much as a second thought under Hoover's orders, so I could definitely see him as the leader of a fascist government. He had a rough relationship with his commanders in chief, especially FDR, so I can see him having no love for parliamentary democracy.
Don't make me laugh. The guy was a loony, not to mention a fundamentalist Christian. I can see him being friends with Coughlin, but I think even Coughlin would want to keep Pelley at arms length.
Zangara kills FDR. Garner fails to check the ongoing Crash; in the winter of 1933-1934 there are food riots and other unrest in major cities. Garner has the Army crack down, but the Army is too small. A Red assassinates Garner, who is succeeded by the Secretary of State, who is... Someone who declares a state of emergency and forms an "American Guard" of volunteers to put down disorder. (Not Cordell Hull. Who would Garner pick instead?)
With mass arrests of "radicals" and the Guard supervising civil life, the US veers to authoritarian rule with a strong fascist flavor.
With mass arrests of "radicals" and the Guard supervising civil life, the US veers to authoritarian rule with a strong fascist flavor.
Best chance is someone with less regard for Democratic norms than FDR gets elected in 1932 and you see a Gabriel Over the White House scenario.
I honestly wonder how something like the movie's 'Army of the Unemployed' would work in real life.
Question, I've seen the movie, so I've always wondered. Can the President really declare martial law whenever he wants?
MacArthur is the best candidate, though he'd be more like Antonescu or Horthy than Mussolini or Hitler. MacCoughlin's Catholicism would be a big turn off for many would-be supporters.
This might sound like a dumb question, but could the Klan (of that time) have been considered fascists? I know they are racist to the core, but I think if they were given power, America would've been a racialist theocracy, not a fascist state.
Well Horthy wasn't a Fascist. The actual fascists in Hungary were the Arrow Cross Party, which he banned, along with the Communists. He was very anti-Communist, so allied with Hitler because he was a bulwark against the Soviets. He was different because he ruled as your bog standard military dictator, and didn't do all that weird economic stuff that Hitler and Mussolini did. It also had elections, but Horthy won them all.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
Hitler was a fascist, while Horthy was an authoritarian and a reactionary.
Yes, but nastier as he was an anti-semite and an anti-ziganite.
Let me guess. He hated gypsies for the same reason Hitler hated Jews.
You need Congressional approval. I haven't seen the movie, but apparently Roosevelt considered a plan to draft the American Legion before deciding against it. There was actually support for Roosevelt assuming dictatorial powers, at least on a temporary basis, but it's unclear if he would have had enough support from Congress and the American people to get away with it if he'd actually tried to.
Apparently, he either decided he didn't want them or decided that he didn't have enough support to take them.
The Klan as revived in 1915 shot itself in the foot by limiting its membership to WASPs. In that era the 'Negro Problem' was thought taken care of. The Organizers of the new Klan (it had been in hiatus for near 40 years) were concerned with morality in general, which they connected to degenerate races of all sorts, and non protestant religions. Two of the core ideologies of the revived Klan were support for Prohibition, and anti Catholisism.
The racial views revolved around the degeneracy of non Anglo Saxon ethinic groups. Even Nordic ethnicity; Nowegians, Danes, Swedes, Germans, Dutch... were suspect. Basically if your ancestors did not come from What is now the UK you were not in the club. The Klans leaders of 1915 did see a hirearchy, that is Slavic groups were superior to Asians, and everyone was above Africans. But to be a Klansman of 1915-1925 was to be from the core English decended demographic.
This became a problem in just a few years. While the Klan was popular among middle class and working class in the rural and new suburban US the ethnic limit did not simply exclude members, it made enemies of the excluded Within a couple years local Klan leaders were trying to work around the official policy. By 1925 Klan leaders were trying to reconcile with Catholic and Orthodox Bishops and end their opposition to the Klan.
The catastrophe of the Volstead Act & Admendment further undercut the morality ideology of the 1920s Klan. The hypocrisy inherent in 'Us good folks can handle alcohol, Prohibition is for our inferiors.' turned off a portion of the membership.
Another blow to the Klan as a national movement was the organizers never developed a way to enforce a portion of the memberships dues and other funds collected be sent to the national HQ. After just a few years the the regional and local leaders were keeping most of the income in their tin box and the national HQ was effectively bankrupt. Between this and multiple local solutions to Klan issues the organization disintegrated into multiple regional groups that ceased gaining any political traction. Locally Klaverns continued some influence, but they were just one of many groups a politician had to pander to. In the 1930s the local Klaverns had ceased to be a independent movement and were just another tool the local powers used to manipulate the working class voters.
How to turn the early Klan revival of 1915 into a solid Facist movement I can say.
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Hitler was a National Socialist and Mussolini was a Fascist. People throw the word Fascist around alot, but that term was only used in Mussolini's Italy.