PC: Mass SMG use in 1914?

[yulzari]

You're sticking to a video game conception of combat.
Look up what really happened in 1914 to 1918.
There was an attempt to use SMG as short range suppressive fire weapons, from the Germans with MP18 and from the Italians with the VP. The first MP18 were meant to provide suppressive fire. They failed in that role. After WW1 SMG were only issued in large number either as PDW for tank crews, etc, or issued to platoons that were liberally equipped with LMGs.
SMG cant provide sustained defensive fire because they don't have the required quick change barrels (though some were actually built with them along with bipods in the 30s, proving to be nearly useless as short range mini LMG), heavy barrels or liqid cooled barrels.
To have an effective SMG armed platoon in need to have one LMG for each squad, ideally with another two in the support squad. In 1914, without LMG, a SMG platoon would not work. even in urban fighting it would be limited in any firefight that was not happening with both sides inside the same building.
When you see images of WW2 soviet infantry with SMGs, you also see LMG everywhere.

Quite so. The SMG has to be seen in the context of a weapons system. The short range firepower of the SMG is supported by the longer range fire of the LMG. Also the long range firepower of the MMG and artillery. By itself it has limited use. In a storming party it needs grenade teams and the LMG team to suppress a counter attack. There is no best weapon. Only the best for a given use. Video games suffer from playing as a soldier and not an officer.Running out of ammunition is not something that is a surprise in the fight.It is anticipated higher up and rifle/SMG men diverted to carry more ammunition for the LMG for example.

With a little more oomph from the round the simple blowback, with a bipod, can suppress to 300 metres. Especially as one has multiple SMGs. The oft quoted 9mm Mauser export, like the Tokarev, is approaching the limit of the simple blowback without excess weight. The Schwarzlose MMG shows how far one can take the blowback but an SMG it is not.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

@dandan_noodles what you're claiming can never happen is exactly what happened at the battle of mons,

where the bef held off 3x their number for hours until the french retreat, german reinforcements, and upcoming heavy artillery forced them from the field

 

[Deleted member 1487]

With a little more oomph from the round the simple blowback, with a bipod, can suppress to 300 metres. Especially as one has multiple SMGs. The oft quoted 9mm Mauser export, like the Tokarev, is approaching the limit of the simple blowback without excess weight. The Schwarzlose MMG shows how far one can take the blowback but an SMG it is not.

This was a simple blowback rifle/cartridge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1910
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.401_Winchester_Self-Loading
That's a 10.33mm with 2600-2700 joules of energy, more than the 7.62x39. 200 grain bullet propelled to 650m/s.

Going off of the .32 WSL cartridge, which was the basis of the .30 Carbine/M1 Carbine cartridge, and adding a spitzer type lighter bullet they probably could have made a pretty effective belt fed SAW for out to 300m or potentially more in simple blowback:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_Winchester_Self-Loading

When first introduced however, the notable firearm expert Townsend Whelen noted the .32SL cartridge as displaying similar ballistics as the .32-40 Winchester black powder, low-pressure cartridge.[3] He further suggests the best use of the .32 SL as being for rapid-fire target shooting for ranges up to 300 yards. Within such ranges, it is quite an accurate cartridge.

The Ribeyrolles was basically that with a box magazine and a necked down .351 WSL cartridge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribeyrolles_1918_automatic_carbine
https://web.archive.org/web/20140602021550/http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

The French also nearly made it into the record books with the first selective-fire rifle using purpose-designed intermediate ammunition. During WW1 they made some use of the semi-automatic Winchester Model 1907 in .351 and the Model 1910 in .401 Win SL (self-loading) cartridges; the rifle design was very simple, being blowback only. While these were mainly used by aircrew, in 1917 France placed an order for 2,200 of an automatic version of the M1907 for use by special assault soldiers. At the same time, they were modifying the .351 SL cartridge by necking it down to accept an 8mm rifle bullet, creating the 8mm Ribeyrolle – arguably the first purpose-designed intermediate military cartridge. This was tested in July 1918 and found to be effective out to 400m. The war ended before anything came of this, but it is not hard to see that had it lasted for another year or two, French troops could have been equipped with an assault rifle. As it was, neither the Ribeyrolle, nor a 7mm version designed in the 1920s, made further progress.

 

[marathag]

In 1914 nobody was complaining about rifles.
The ideal 1914 infantry weapon is the SMLE. From 1915, in France and Italy, you can mix it up. But until then SMG are an expensive answer to an un existing question.

There were complaints about Rifles, and the Sword Bayonets that went with them, to get them down to Carbine Length of 'only' 24 inches from the M98 with 29 inches for the Mausers

The SMLE was a 1905 compromise between the 1895 MLE Rifle of 30" and MLE Cavalry Carbine of 21"
Stamping technology was up to make an M3A1 'Grease Gun' by 1905, so not really expensive, about the same as a rifle $15 in 1943, 3£20s of the SMLE mk III in 1914

 

[Cryhavoc101]

and it's a lot more likely to malfunction than Mauser style rifles.

I have never seen that claim before about the SMLE?

Can you expand upon that?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Stamping technology was up to make an M3A1 'Grease Gun' by 1905, so not really expensive, about the same as a rifle $15 in 1943, 3£20s of the SMLE mk III in 1914

Huh. Didn't know that. Looking it up the first stamped metal parts were used in bicycle making in the 1880s and in the automobile industry around the turn of the century. I wonder why they didn't try stamped metal firearms to this point. Was there some issue with them or was it just too much old school thinking?

Edit:
Looks like Arthur Savage patented the first fully removable stamped sheet metal magazine in 1908 and that actually prevented a lot of other designs from using something like it until the patent expired in 1942.

I'd think that would make something like the Sten Gun viable by 1914 at least if not earlier.

 

[Georgepatton]

Huh. Didn't know that. Looking it up the first stamped metal parts were used in bicycle making in the 1880s and in the automobile industry around the turn of the century. I wonder why they didn't try stamped metal firearms to this point. Was there some issue with them or was it just too much old school thinking?

Bicycle parts are probably a lot less complex than the components of a working firearm, and don't have to bear anything like the pressure a firearm is expected to take.

Any weapon that can meet military specifications of reliability under field and wartime conditions is going to have a development and production cycle that takes time, research, resources, and manpower that might all be better employed doing something else - either saved from being needlessly expended during peacetime, or put to other uses like refining or producing proven technology during wartime.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Bicycle parts are probably a lot less complex than the components of a working firearm, and don't have to bear anything like the pressure a firearm is expected to take.

Any weapon that can meet military specifications of reliability under field and wartime conditions is going to have a development and production cycle that takes time, research, resources, and manpower that might all be better employed doing something else - either saved from being needlessly expended during peacetime, or put to other uses like refining or producing proven technology during wartime.

For something MG-42 or Bren-like sure, but for something like a Sten Gun with low pressure 9mm rounds?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten#History
It was an absurdly simple weapon.

 

[Georgepatton]

For something MG-42 or Bren-like sure, but for something like a Sten Gun with low pressure 9mm rounds?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten#History
It was an absurdly simple weapon.

A weapon of absurd desperation, as well, one that would never have otherwise been pursued or developed for military service except for the need to have any gun and as fast as possible, no matter how unreliable or poorly functioning.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

A weapon of absurd desperation, as well, one that would never have otherwise been pursued or developed for military service except for the need to have any gun and as fast as possible, no matter how unreliable or poorly functioning.

Yet they kept making it throughout the entire war despite having better options.

 

[Georgepatton]

Yet they kept making it throughout the entire war despite having better options.

They refined it through various incremental improvements and improved the overall quality of them as their desperation receeded, because working with what you already have is always easier than shutting it down and starting something new.

You only really do that in a war when you must, because the advantages are so great that you might seriously lose out by failing to grasp them when the enemy does, and most of the time, with small arms, that's just not the case.

 

[dandan_noodles]

@dandan_noodles what you're claiming can never happen is exactly what happened at the battle of mons,

where the bef held off 3x their number for hours until the french retreat, german reinforcements, and upcoming heavy artillery forced them from the field

Rifle was effective against the Germans when they were in close order formations attempting to cross a bridge; when they switched to more open formations, the only reason they weren't overwhelmed was excellent machine gun fire. Moreover, that whole cadre of skilled riflemen were obliterated in 1914, with the BEF taking more than 100% casualties. The Kitchener's army divisions and conscripts than succeeded them could not have matched them; their performance in this (lost) battle was dependent on having a military system that simply couldn't cope with modern warfare. If you replaced the Tommies with the average Jacques or Ivan, the rifle fire would be far less effective.

Can you expand upon that?

I've not quite conversant about the mechanics, but it's the opinion of Ian McCollum, who's contributed to or published multiple books on historical firearms.

 

[longsword14]

@dandan_noodles what you're claiming can never happen is exactly what happened at the battle of mons,

where the bef held off 3x their number for hours until the french retreat, german reinforcements, and upcoming heavy artillery forced them from the field

Effectiveness of British rifle fire has come under criticism lately.

If you replaced the Tommies with the average Jacques or Ivan, the rifle fire would be far less effective.

The effectiveness of BEF rifle fire at Mons has been scrutinised by looking at German records of that battle. The estimated casualties inflicted were not as high as many believed, and when comparisons are made with the French, the idea of highly effective rifle fire is put into doubt.

 

[marathag]

Edit:
Looks like Arthur Savage patented the first fully removable stamped sheet metal magazine in 1908 and that actually prevented a lot of other designs from using something like it until the patent expired in 1942.

Hmm, Colt, via JMB, had the 8 round mag in their 32acp pocket automatic of 1903, and Winchester with their 1907 SLR blowbacks in 351

 

[marathag]

Bicycle parts are probably a lot less complex than the components of a working firearm, and don't have to bear anything like the pressure a firearm is expected to take.

If you do the stamping right, the receiver takes no pressure loads, and you dont need real aerospace tolerances https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/diy-shovel-ak-photo-tsunami-warning.179192/

 

[Intosh]

The only problem is that shooting something with a SMG after 100m of range is nearly impossible. Today SMG have semi-auto or burst mod, but earlier SMG were only full auto, and burst mod was difficult to do because you have to control your finger on the trigger.

From what I remember from army, there is a reason why SMG are not used anymore in great numbers. Pistol cartridges are not reliable after 50 m.

 

[AdA]

There were complaints about Rifles, and the Sword Bayonets that went with them, to get them down to Carbine Length of 'only' 24 inches from the M98 with 29 inches for the Mausers

The SMLE was a 1905 compromise between the 1895 MLE Rifle of 30" and MLE Cavalry Carbine of 21"
Stamping technology was up to make an M3A1 'Grease Gun' by 1905, so not really expensive, about the same as a rifle $15 in 1943, 3£20s of the SMLE mk III in 1914

Sure, and in WW2 the G98 was mostly used by snipers and the general issue weapon was the KAR98. But the transition from long to short rifles was in motion before the great war and was not a complain against bolt action rifles but about their ideal lenght.

 

[marathag]

Sure, and in WW2 the G98 was mostly used by snipers and the general issue weapon was the KAR98. But the transition from long to short rifles was in motion before the great war and was not a complain against bolt action rifles but about their ideal lenght.

But in 1914, the only real choices are bolt actions, be they turnbolt or straight pull, and Lever Actions. The Mondragon and Remington just really weren't there yet for a large army to adopt a semi as main service weapon.

And many Brass Hats did howl on the carbine length weapons being worthless. Won't be able to shoot horses at 1k.

 

[AdA]

But in 1914, the only real choices are bolt actions, be they turnbolt or straight pull, and Lever Actions. The Mondragon and Remington just really weren't there yet for a large army to adopt a semi as main service weapon.

And many Brass Hats did howl on the carbine length weapons being worthless. Won't be able to shoot horses at 1k.

And probably some hard core folks asking for double barrel express rifles to be issued in case the BEF brings along some war elephants on loan from their mates in the Indian Army.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Moreover, that whole cadre of skilled riflemen were obliterated in 1914, with the BEF taking more than 100% casualties.

But not by Germans armed with SMGs though, surely?