Pragmatic Wunderwaffe

Not quite sure I see your point. I agree Germany was ahead in rocketry, but realistically what good did it do them? I can think of about 1042 production priorities more useful than the V1 and V2.

To me a wonder weapon has to be defined as a weapon that works, is produced in sufficient quantity, and achieves the goals set for it. For example, the Manhatten Project, the B-29 program, Essex class carriers and Des Moines class cruisers, etc, etc.
 
I mean, does the Jerry can count? It actually is an example of a wunderwaffe: both very economically and functionally efficient such that the Allies reverse-engineered it and adapted it for themselves.
 

Deleted member 1487

Not quite sure I see your point. I agree Germany was ahead in rocketry, but realistically what good did it do them? I can think of about 1042 production priorities more useful than the V1 and V2.

To me a wonder weapon has to be defined as a weapon that works, is produced in sufficient quantity, and achieves the goals set for it. For example, the Manhatten Project, the B-29 program, Essex class carriers and Des Moines class cruisers, etc, etc.
V-2 yes, V-1 no. The latter was extremely cost effective to develop and field even with the high loss rate. The V-2 on the other hand consumed 80% of the V-weapons program budget, but inflicted extremely limited damage compared to the V-1.

I mean, does the Jerry can count? It actually is an example of a wunderwaffe: both very economically and functionally efficient such that the Allies reverse-engineered it and adapted it for themselves.
Sounds more like a just a good idea rather than a 'wunderwaffe' especially when it wasn't even a 'waffe'.
 

McPherson

Banned
Not quite sure I see your point. I agree Germany was ahead in rocketry, but realistically what good did it do them? I can think of about 1042 production priorities more useful than the V1 and V2.

They weren't ahead in rocketry. Just more invested. The Americans were clearly more capable in solid fuels and were about parity with hypergolics and guidance. They succeeded with step rockets about the same time the Germans did.

To me a wonder weapon has to be defined as a weapon that works, is produced in sufficient quantity, and achieves the goals set for it. For example, the Manhatten Project, the B-29 program, Essex class carriers and Des Moines class cruisers, etc, etc.

Or the Ford Motor Company buzz bomb?
 
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McPherson

Banned
Not familiar with the Ford Buzz Bomb though and the link seems broken.

Fixed link. The short version is that the US Army "acquired" bits and pieces of V-1 technology through the Danes in 1942 and from British supplied V-1 wreckage during the 1944 "Second Blitz". Jack Northrop had first crack at it from 1942 on and produced the JB-1 for airdrop weight tests by late 1943/early 1944. Meanwhile USAAF engineers built a copy of the Argus As 014 exactly 3 weeks after the first buzz bombs landed in the UK. That is fast by any standards. One year later the Japanese are scheduled to receive the Loon. This would not have been good news in Tokyo.
 
Gizmos aside, if your PoD is 1880 AD then abdicate Kaiser Bill II in 1895 AD. That gains you a lot more than gadgets. You remove him from power just about when his good efforts at modernizing his government plateau out and before he goes off the rails into das Land der verrückten Träumer (Cloudcuckoosvile).

Abdication < assassination. Makes more sense to me given the turmoil of the time. Anarchists claimed the lives of many ambassadors, generals, monarchs, politicians and the like from the 1850s to the 1910s; therefore I find it fitting to have the 1901 assassination attempt on the Wilhelm II succeed. But keep in mind I also have Fredrick the III alive and well until his son's premature death, which kills him outright from grief. I would say Prince Henry of Prussia would take the throne as Kaiser, but I think it's better to write him out entirely through abdication (or something else) and have Prince Sigismund of Prussia become Kaiser (granted he does not die of meningitis). Sigismund would be 37 in 1901. The reason being is that since Sigismund died as a child, it makes it easier for me to craft his personality, mannerisms, wit, etc. as an adult rather than guessing how Henry would carry himself. Who is to say Bismarck does not groom young Sigismund behind the scenes after being sacked? I am sure if Federick lived longer, the position of chancellor would have lost significant sway in Germany. I am still working on this timeline at the moment obviously. But to give you a sneak peek, I guess I can elaborate more on what happens. France finishes the Panama Canal, the Borki Disaster is averted, the Samoan Crisis goes hot, the Mayerling Incident never happens, the Titanic never sinks... I could go on, but why spoil all the fun? XD
 
You missed two that could have major impact on the situation in the Spring of 1945.
The EZ42 (lead computing) gunsight and the MK213 (20mm) revolver cannon.
These would have major implications had they been operational.
They're both real and plausible within the time frame.

These are real (attainable) wonderwaffles...
 
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Speaking of Z and computing, give Zuse real funding from the time the Z1 is completed or funding in 1936/1937 when it is still being assembled. Germany gets a major boost in computing with possibility for Plankalkul to be implemented as a possible proto-Fortran of sorts on Z5s or Z11 equivalents by war's end. We might see some of the world's first computer-assisted desgins towards or at the end of World War II. If nothing else it might make V1 targeting much more precise.

*I'm still wondering what the OTL 'integral calculus machine' at the Pribrans facility was...
 

thaddeus

Donor
the wood gas vehicle apparatus made an overlooked contribution, saving millions of barrels of oil, they were in effect miniature synthetic plants, but could use almost any material for fuel.

more realistic hopes from early war wunderwaffe? S-boats and magnetic mines? if those two had been married effectively, needing an S-boat the size of its cousin the R-boat to be able to deploy more than a handful of mines?
 

Ian_W

Banned
As has been said, it's about processes and systems to ration.alise research priorities.

It's about the boring stuff. Jerry cans. Torpedoes that work. Training methods. Standardised trucks for standardised parts.
 
At work.

Just a personal comment on the German turbines.

They kind of knew the material shortages and bottle necks, hence why they went for axial flow, hollow air cooled bladed turbines and not Whittle's radial flow design.

While I like thd Do-335. The Ho-299 is still a 'Better' (Cheaper in materials etc) and the Horten brothers had been working the bugs out of their design for most of the war.

Heck, give the Horten brothers more resources and developmental help (Them crossing paths with Proffesor Lippisch is ALWAYS a good thing) gets you a Ho-229 a year or more earlier with potentially Lippitch slots and wing edge droop to combat thd reported 'Dutch roll'.

Remember. Turbines burn pretty much anything. Savin8 your precious oil for the more important stuff.

Then, of course, there's the Lippitch P-12, coal burning, mach 2, delta wing, bomber interceptor........ Pretty much made just out of wood.

:D


Cheers.
 
A wire guided HS 293B could be considered a suicide weapon. It's wire guidance would probably give it a shorter range meaning it had to get with an anti-aircraft range of allied warships and fly straight and level while the missile was in flight to avoid snapping the wire. I wouldn't want to try to fire one while there were allied fighters around, which given allied air superiority was almost always.
The Germans biggest problem with jet engines was the shortage of high temperature alloys. The Germans could build a lot of jet aircraft but their engines would burn out rather fast and need to be replaced. That would be a serious drain on German industry. Jets would be good in small numbers and used to divert Ally resources into hunting them.
German industry should have focused more on the FW 190 and the TA 152.
An emergency fighter using the engine and multiple components from the me-109 should have been designed in 1944.
The emergency fighter would be designed for speed and not maneuverability , because if it ever in counted allied fighters it would be outnumbered and trying to fight the allied fighters was not a good decision it was better to run away. It would also have to have been designed to be expendable with components not having a life expectancy of over 6 months because the aircraft would not survive that long. If somehow a pilot managed to live that long, just put him in a new aircraft.
 
I mean it was just a straight up copy of the V-1. Not much development required, just reverse engineering from captured wreckage, which by itself is impressive, though they had a lot of examples to work with.
It had an improved guidance system it was more accurate than the V1. Where are the V1 could hit a city , The Loon was accurate to within one quarter of a mile. (400 meters) pretty good for taking pot shots at a factory.
 

thaddeus

Donor
the wood gas vehicle apparatus made an overlooked contribution, saving millions of barrels of oil, they were in effect miniature synthetic plants, but could use almost any material for fuel.

more realistic hopes from early war wunderwaffe? S-boats and magnetic mines? if those two had been married effectively, needing an S-boat the size of its cousin the R-boat to be able to deploy more than a handful of mines?

would add, they toyed with helicopters, even the idea of replacing S-boats with them? since the S-boats never had radar, they might have used helicopters in combination with the fast attack boats?

The Germans biggest problem with jet engines was the shortage of high temperature alloys. The Germans could build a lot of jet aircraft but their engines would burn out rather fast and need to be replaced. That would be a serious drain on German industry. Jets would be good in small numbers and used to divert Ally resources into hunting them.
German industry should have focused more on the FW 190 and the TA 152.
An emergency fighter using the engine and multiple components from the me-109 should have been designed in 1944.
The emergency fighter would be designed for speed and not maneuverability , because if it ever in counted allied fighters it would be outnumbered and trying to fight the allied fighters was not a good decision it was better to run away.

my understanding the post-war studies found the Arado AR-234 useful since it restored at least basic recon ability? (built in limited numbers)

a more logical, pragmatic, timeline would have Heinkel producing an HE-119 (high speed, coupled engines), then an HE-219 with two power system engines (instead of ill-fated HE-177) finally abandoning piston engines for a jet HE-319 or 519? (instead of Arado Blitz a Heinkel Blitz)

always consider the ME-109Z twin fuselage aircraft a sleeper project, especially as a platform for R4M rockets? (possibly add RATO? at least more feasible than ME-163?)
 

Deleted member 1487

It had an improved guidance system it was more accurate than the V1. Where are the V1 could hit a city , The Loon was accurate to within one quarter of a mile. (400 meters) pretty good for taking pot shots at a factory.
The V-1 increased in accuracy too. The reason the V-1 had such a wide CEP early on was the misdirection efforts by the British and lack of aerial recon to confirm where they was landing. Still, despite that they were still improving accuracy throughout the war. The Loon wasn't any more inherently accurate it just didn't face countermeasures in testing.
 

Deleted member 1487

You missed two that could have major impact on the situation in the Spring of 1945.
The EZ42 (lead computing) gunsight and the MK213 (20mm) revolver cannon.
These would have major implications had they been operational.
They're both real and plausible within the time frame.

These are real (attainable) wonderwaffles...
By Spring 1945 it's over, so no significant impact possible. Plus the revolver cannon wasn't production ready AFAIK.

always consider the ME-109Z twin fuselage aircraft a sleeper project, especially as a platform for R4M rockets? (possibly add RATO? at least more feasible than ME-163?)
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...s-a-replacement-for-the-bf110-in-1941.437103/


In terms of a 'wunderwaffe' that would be useful, having the Kugelblitz a couple of years earlier would have been significantly helpful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz

If they had figured out how to make viable nylon discarding sabot on top of that, they'd effectively had a Gepard decades earlier:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakpanzer_Gepard
 
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First, organize R&D better beginning in the mid-30s. Create a TAIC equivalent a la Wright-Pat in the ARPA era, literally a consulting group for any company using available experts. Coordinate better with the other Axis members especially re: torpedoes and engines while encouraging synthetic chemistry earlier as well as lipid biology per algal paper. Hungary has a working turboprop engine in 1940, Junkers develops what becomes the early NK-12 before war's end. Coordinate production by facility instead of manufacturer - let Von Ohain keep his team intact as well as some of the other research groups.

Gear Germany for full war production footing from the day the war starts and give exemptions for service to 'technically useful' and skilled people. Promote mildly independent thinking in engineering and unofficially let them have a bit more wiggle room (they may tolerate a few minor infractions to moral laws but would never be eleigible for promotion etc). Group useful yet 'at-risk' researchers in dedicated towns where they could be watched more closely. Reverse engineer without hesitation (Zh29, MB162, and that means taking people like Jean-Jacques Barre as well) and aggressively pursue industrial/commercial espionage. Developing better HUMINT and CONINTEL networks wouldn't hurt either.

Not sure how far that would get you but it would make for a heckuva headstart. Japan working out the kinks on a DB 606 or Germany improving and mass producing a Homare aircraft engine could cause major mid-war problems for the Allies.
 
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