Weird possibility: how about simply buying the plans of the french Clemenceau class? Then alter them to fit UK electronics, other gear and self defense weapons? It's a post war design, it's not an "expensive monster US design" and would massively shorten the development costs and time...
No it wouldn't. Experience from other projects indicates it would take at least as long as developing a design from scratch, cost more and probably be less effective.

Changing the engine, power supply and entire wiring and cabling is a massive job in itself. Then you look at larger and stronger lifts, bigger catapult, proper radar, changing the weapon system (British missiles and more CIWS I'd imagine) so a new combat control system to run that.

It's a new design basically, only harder because you are constrained by all the 1950s decisions. Just do the design from scratch, faster and cheaper.
 
Weird possibility: how about simply buying the plans of the french Clemenceau class? Then alter them to fit UK electronics, other gear and self defense weapons? It's a post war design, it's not an "expensive monster US design" and would massively shorten the development costs and time...
Why buy the plans to a thirty year old French design when you've got a ten year old domestic design that you can dust off? But really, I don't think that either would meet the RN's post-Falklands requirements, but given that the RN will already have three Invincible class carriers (though one might well be sold off) then I think that the operating concept of CVA would more closely meet the RN's requirements than a new built Clemenceau.
 
If the RN starts a carrier project in the 1980s, the French might try to join on for their replacements for the Clemenceaus. I doubt it would work out. To make sure the carrier is usable with both modern fast jets and modern AEWC aircraft (not helicopters), you're going to be looking at Midway size, so 300 m OAL and about 50,000 tons. CdG is unusable as a strike carrier because of its size and cannot participate in high-intensity offensive warfare if it also has to protect itself. The USN conducted several studies of light and medium carriers in the 1980s and 1990s and consistently found that local air and ASW defense requires a fixed amount of aircraft, about 20 to 40 depending on the environment, so only excess squadrons can be used for offensive roles. Larger carriers can operate larger air groups, with more strike capability, more efficiently. Marginal increases in building and operating costs are smaller than the increases in size that these pay for, which is why Reagan's navy went with all Nimitzes instead of a larger fleet with a mix of Nimitzes and nuclear neo-Midways.

If the British wanted to join Strike Fleet Atlantic and the four supercarriers in the Norwegian Sea, Eagle and Ark Royal would have together matched the capability of one US supercarrier. In effect, one carrier would be protecting both of them while the other flew strike missions. The Falklands were a pretty good example of the kind of medium-intensity naval warfare that the RN would find in basically any war that didn't involve the Soviets (maybe against Libya or Iran in this period), and where a medium carrier would be better able to handle itself. If the Bonglanders and Baguettes team up with the one carrier (Eagle or CdG size or slightly bigger) they'll each get out of this, they can have the equivalent of a US supercarrier for twice as much money.

The single most important capability of any prospective aircraft carrier needs to be the ability to operate the E-2 Hawkeye. Just like airborne control of land-based aircraft, bringing the same capability to naval airpower creates a huge fore multiplier that can't be matched with AEW helicopters, piston-driven aircraft, or picket ships. This requires a ship at least the size of CdG or Vikrant, so about 260 m OAL and 40,000 tons. The Audacious-class carriers would probably be to small; the Essexes never operated E-2s but they were mostly retired by the time the Hawkeyes were well in service so they may not have had a chance.
 
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How do the casualty lists compare to OTL for both sides?
This will probably be covered in the next update (once I've done a bit of counting). Suffice to say that while the British have probably come off slightly better than IOTL the Argentines will have suffered much worse ITTL.
Overall TTL's Falklands conflict has probably been a much bloodier affair than OTL.
 

SsgtC

Banned
the Essexes never operated E-2s but they were mostly retured by the time the Hawkeyes were well in service.
Actually, the E-2 was originally designed to be operated from the Essex class. The rotodome that houses the radar was on a telescoping mount in the E-2A to allow them to be struck below in the hanger. But the A model had so many reliability issues that the decision was made for the Essex class and the FDR to just keep flying Tracers.
 
Also there really needs to be an effort to work with others on the new carrier design. Get the French, Italians, Australian's (assuming abandoning Melbourne replacement is butterflied) and maybe the Indians on board and you could both share and cut costs.
By itself the UK would likely build two carriers at most. However if the French buy two, Italy, Australia, India (and maybe Spain) buy one each that's at least seven and some savings by pooling info and mass production.
No one but France will buy or construct a CATOBAR carrier. The best the UK can do is to sell an Invincible (possibly Australia) or sell the Invincible's plans to Italy and Spain (but those ships will probably be striped down compared to the UK ones). None of those four nations need a CATOBAR carrier and they don't have the political will to pay for the extra cost.

You can try getting others involved, but it's invariably going to break down. The French will insist on nuclear power, while none of the other nations will want that (or be capable of operating a Nuke carrier). The Italians and Spanish will want a much smaller ship than the 55-70k ton supercarrier that the UK and France want. And Australia will probably still only be interested in the purchase of Invincible absent a clear threat in their region.
In the end, it's still going to be just two carriers getting built for the UK. Best to just design the thing from the start to British requirements and make it known that you're willing to sell a copy to friendly nations (i.e. France, Spain, Italy, Australia).
I think the RN will ask for two 70k ton CATOBAR carriers with F-14. The Exchequer (after being revived from the heart attack) will say no. It's simply too costly. While an 70k ton CATOBAR carrier is cheaper per ton, it's still 20 to 30% costlier than a 40-55k ton one overall. And that's before factoring the bigger air wing (which cost, at least, as much as the carrier), the bigger crew (3,000+ against 2,000 for the GdG, with the technology at the time), the extra equipment (an 70k CATOBAR carrier will probably have an extra steam catapult, plus some other stuff) and all the land infrastructure to reconstruct. In the end, the RN won't have anything bigger than a 55k ton CATOBAR carrier.
On the collaboration with the French, I agree, they will insist on nuclear power (*). But, even if there is not much collaboration in the end, France and the UK could group-buy some equipment to the US, like the steam catapults (two 75 meters per carrier meaning probably 8 total), the arrestor wires and the E-2C (4 to 6 by country). All those will limit the costs and maintain enough international cooperation that it limit the possibility to shut down or scale down the projects.

No chance - the French can just about afford a real carrier, nobody else can at this point. That means three hulls if you're lucky, possibly two.
France can pay for two hulls, they planned to before the end of the Cold War. If anything, in the 80's and 90's, France still have (slightly) more financial capacities than the UK.

I agree with you that the bare minimum for a CATOBAR carrier size is 45/50k tons. But don't forget that the French CdG was developed as a 40k ton, 40 F/A-18, no E-2 carrier. It's the later adding of E-2's that forced the number of Rafale to 32 max.

Yeah 18's or the Rafale. The Tomcat is a bit big for what we can build, very expensive and its also an older design. Absent the failed 90's upgrade (because I doubt this will butterfly the end of the cold war much) its rapidly heading towards obsolescence by 1995 so go with the more modern plane. Also while not as good a fighter the various marks of hornet and super hornet are effective attack planes killing two birds with one stone.
I agree, Tomcats are ridiculously expensive. But that's also likely to be what the RN wants to replace it's Phantoms. They've just gotten a very clear lesson on the importance of a fleet defense interceptor and will want the best. ITTL, I could actually see more -14Ds being procured by the USN and maybe the proposed Super Tomcat later on. So I could definitely see the Royal Navy's preferred option being Tomcats. What the treasury will actually pay for however is a whole other story. We might see them elect to overhaul their Phantom fleet instead and keep flying those for a longer period as a "cost saving measure."
I agree that the RN might want the F-14, but the treasury won't pay for anything bigger than the F/A-18. Don't forget that, even if the UK launch the new carrier project now, no new CATOBAR carrier will enter service before the middle of the 90's at the earliest, so an ITTL Rafale is possible.

Remember, this is before the split between Typhoon and Rafale - which was largely but not exclusively driven by the fact that the French wanted a carrier-capable aircraft.
If the RN want a carrier capable aircraft, then the Treasury are going to tell them that they need to share it with the RAF. That means either the RAF buy Tomcats as well (not ASB but very unlikely to be allowed - they wanted it instead of Tornado F.3 in OTL) or the UK stays on the Rafale track and the Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc. end up with a smaller aircraft looking rather like a cross between Gripen and F-16.
I agree that having 2 CATOBAR carriers won't suppress the RAF need for a long range, high altitude, bomber killer to fight over the North Sea and the GIUK gap. But I don't think they will buy the F-14 (too expensive and zero commonality with any other aircraft in UK's service). They will probably follow the OTL route with the Tornado ADV and then the Typhoon.
On the Rafale/Typhoon split, I will cite what I said many pages ago :
As I understand it, the Rafale/Typhoon split had at least four main reasons OTL.
First, their was important differences in what countries wanted as an aircraft. France wanted a light (to drive down cost) carrier-capable fighter-bomber (basically a F-18) because the Mirage 2000 was entering service in the French Air Force. While the UK (and to a lesser extend West Germany and Italy) wanted an heavy fighter (basically a F-15) capable of intercepting heavy bombers out at sea (for the UK) and participating in aerial superiority in central Europe (for the UK, West Germany and Italy) because the Tornado was entering service and filling fighter-bomber and strike role. I think the Spanish needs were closer to the French ones (they bought the F-18 in the 90's after all), but going alone with the French wouldn't gave as much say than with the Eurofighter.
Second, the french had a very different vision of the architecture of the aircraft and considered that the EAP's air inlets were too close to each other. For Dassault, the EAP and Typhoon are "no true bi-reactor" because one event in one could affect the other.
Third, France and Dassault wanted to protect their aeronautic industry, specially SNECMA (engines) which had been prop up since 1945 and had just catch up the US and UK in capabilities. Choosing a Rolls-Royce derivative for the motor would have meant the end of this policy and blocked SNECMA in the same league as the Germans and the Italians.
Fouth, France and Dassault wanted a clear repartitions of roles with a single company having the clear leadership and being the sole responsible before the countries in the consortium (mostly they wanted Dassault to be the leader), it's basically what it has been agreed for the next Franco-German aircraft. The others, on the other hand thought the responsibilities could be split on the basis of the number of aircraft ordered.
I might add a fifth point, the British, German and Italian had already worked together to develop the Tornado and they weren't very keen to give up some tasks to the French.
So I think the split is still coming, but :
The more I think of the problem, the more I tend to a two programs solution. Because the RAF needs don't change the UK will still participate to the Eurofighter program and leading it. But, the RN need a smaller naval fighter, so I find it possible that the UK take a secondary seat in the Rafale program (possibly bringing Spain in).

* : The nuclear propulsion means that the carrier have bigger storage of ammunition and aircraft fuel, which in turn reduce the number of sea resupply. With the Clemenceau's, the MN needed to stand down air operations for half a day every two days to resupply, with the CdG it's every four days.
 
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I agree that having 2 CATOBAR carriers won't suppress the RAF need for a long range, high altitude, bomber killer to fight over the North Sea and the GIUK gap. But I don't think they will buy the F-14 (too expensive and zero commonality with any other aircraft in UK's service). They will probably follow the OTL route with the Tornado ADV and then the Typhoon.
On the Rafale/Typhoon split, I will cite what I said many pages ago :

I might add a fifth point, the British, German and Italian had already worked together to develop the Tornado and they weren't very keen to give up some tasks to the French.
So I think the split is still coming, but :
That might be an acceptable technical solution - and even vaguely cost-effective - but the Treasury won't accept it. The services will be told that they're allowed one fast jet programme for all their requirements and that they must fund it within £XXX million. Essentially that means Typhoon or Rafale for the Tornado replacement.
 
That might be an acceptable technical solution - and even vaguely cost-effective - but the Treasury won't accept it. The services will be told that they're allowed one fast jet programme for all their requirements and that they must fund it within £XXX million. Essentially that means Typhoon or Rafale for the Tornado replacement.
Oh, I agree, it's a stretch politically !
But in the end, it won't cost much more than buying customized F/A-18 assembled on a British line. And you have far more return on your investment.

Plus, in my mind, the move have the "Perfide Albion" vibe.
 
That might be an acceptable technical solution - and even vaguely cost-effective - but the Treasury won't accept it. The services will be told that they're allowed one fast jet programme for all their requirements and that they must fund it within £XXX million. Essentially that means Typhoon or Rafale for the Tornado replacement.
In that case it's a no brainer, you go Typhoon. Not so much for the aircraft but for the partners. You know what you are getting there (Germany will lie about how many it will buy to get excess workshare, Italy will focus on the tech transfer, etc) but at least you have partners who actually want to partner.

If you go Rafale then France will demand Dassault is prime contractor, SNECMA alone do the engines and in exchange Britain puts up 75%+ of the development budget and is permitted to supply a single receptionist to the project, provided said receptionist only speaks French and is based in Paris.
 
In that case it's a no brainer, you go Typhoon. Not so much for the aircraft but for the partners. You know what you are getting there (Germany will lie about how many it will buy to get excess workshare, Italy will focus on the tech transfer, etc) but at least you have partners who actually want to partner.

If you go Rafale then France will demand Dassault is prime contractor, SNECMA alone do the engines and in exchange Britain puts up 75%+ of the development budget and is permitted to supply a single receptionist to the project, provided said receptionist only speaks French and is based in Paris.
Yeah, I know how it works - I work for Safran (=SNECMA + a few other bits, including Lucas Electrical in my case). Having said that, we're dealing with the Treasury here - I think you'd end up with the UK signing up to Rafale and it working out about as well as Project Horizon. Still, without the UK on board Typhoon might well fail completely after the Berlin Wall comes down...
 
If you go Rafale then France will demand Dassault is prime contractor, SNECMA alone do the engines and in exchange Britain puts up 75%+ of the development budget and is permitted to supply a single receptionist to the project, provided said receptionist only speaks French and is based in Paris.
Isn’t France now the only country in the western world able to build a modern fighter aircraft without the US gripping their balls? Can’t argue with success...
 
I agree with you that the bare minimum for a CATOBAR carrier size is 45/50k tons. But don't forget that the French CdG was developed as a 40k ton, 40 F/A-18, no E-2 carrier. It's the later adding of E-2's that forced the number of Rafale to 32 max.

It also led to a rather expensive lengthening of the flight deck.
 
I think that the elephant in the room that we're missing here is that the Treasury and RAF will seek to present the CATOBAR carrier requirement of the Falklands as a unique event. Which other likely conflicts that the UK will become involved in will require it to field a CATOBAR carrier? The RAF and Treasury will push for the cheaper option of deterring the Argentines by constructing an RAF base on the islands and stationing a flight of Phantoms there and at an eventual cost of under £250m and it'll be a much more attractive option to the government than a 55kt-60kt aircraft carrier that will cost more than four times as much.
 
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