It's pretty straightforward - find a way to end World War II in such a way that both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union collapse. Nuclear war doesn't count.
AHC: End WW2 with both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union dissolving
- Thread starter Sailor Haumea
- Start date
Have Hitler being shot dead during the Beer Hall Putsch and Goering becomes the next leader of the NSDAP (which would butterfly away Mein Kampf and the Final Solution). Goering isn't much of a hardline Nazi as Hitler, so a German-Soviet alliance would be possible and both of them will be dissolved after their loss in WW2.
Well a more competent Germany with Soviet resources would be a tough slog.
Also no Hitler might mean goering never gera a high position or even leaderahip. This might mean no ww II.. And or no ww II with Germany in the wrong side of the fence
To the op. No lend lease soviets fight to a stand still but really make gains only very late. Never accepted as an allied Power since they coninavded Poland.
Allies take Berlin and Warsaw and minks and kyiv.
Stalin commits suicide or is offed during war, Soviet union democratizes
Soviets settle at the dnieper.
Allies take Berlin and Warsaw and minks and kyiv.
Stalin commits suicide or is offed during war, Soviet union democratizes
Soviets settle at the dnieper.
Germans manage to take Moscow with better planning and better winter gear. Stalin either dies in Moscow, or begins to rack up much greater purges. This can lead to some sort of devastating civil war, but enough Red Army troops and the vast reaches of the Eastern Front means the Germans are still forced to commit heavy amounts of troops. WW2 lasts a bit longer, with Japan getting starved and D-Day possibly happening later or around the same time, but with a much harder slog until nukes are available.
Germans release gas after defeat at Stalingrad. Soviets reply in kind. Germans, having lost less territory than OTL, initiate Operation Eisenhammer earlier with greater success. Soviets respond with brutal treatment of POWs and worse treatment of civilians than OTL. Germans organize Der Reiss earlier and have bomb-proof factories. Soviet factories, although lacking electricity, otherwise remain largely out of German reach. Germans still lose territory but more gradually and slow Allied advance such that the Rhine is still a frontier in mid-1945. Sensing the end as Allied troops enter Bavaria from Austria and with Allied troops approaching Prague, Germans release biological warfare agents via Unit 731 technology transfer, Soviets counter with forcing trainloads of the sickest back behind German lines until the trains run out of fuel or impact somewhere. By late 1946 a variant of black plague has appeared with devastating effects between the Rhine and Urals, depopulating much of Central and Eastern Europe with lesser effects on Soviet Asia.
Germans win in Stalingrad and reach Moscow. This cause even bigger devastation of USSR. But Red Army still manage push Germans out from USSR. Allies manage march to Köningsberg. Stalin frtustrates and try purge Zhukov and such begin Soviet Civil War aka Second Russian Civil War and Soviet Union collapses.
or
Chamberlain is replaced by Winston CHurchill before Polish invasion. Then UK and France declare war to USSR too in September 1939. France doesn't fall. Mussolini remain neutral and perhaps join to war couple years later. USA enters to war earlier. War is going to last much longer than in OTL but Allies finally capture Moscow and Stalin commits suicide. Allies decide dissolve Soviet Union.
or
Chamberlain is replaced by Winston CHurchill before Polish invasion. Then UK and France declare war to USSR too in September 1939. France doesn't fall. Mussolini remain neutral and perhaps join to war couple years later. USA enters to war earlier. War is going to last much longer than in OTL but Allies finally capture Moscow and Stalin commits suicide. Allies decide dissolve Soviet Union.
hitler doesn't waste the year after the fall of france. USSR toppled by 1947 and WWII ends with anarchy all over eurasia.
Stalin joins the Axis in November 1940. World War II is bloodier, longer, and ends with atomic strikes ranging across Europe and Northern Asia. At its end, Stalin and his goons are lumped in with Nazis and Japanese war criminals. Devastation may actually hit the US directly depending on how long the war progresses - perhaps the Soviets copy/improve the G8N or even build a G10 bomber while German technology lets them actually build a V-101 equivalent if they did not in OTL. At least double the number of casualties when all is totalled as war ranges farther and longer.
I would think so, Poland, baltics, Belarus and at least Western Ukraine.
Who knows you could get an enlarged Lithuania with vilno as the capital and a smaller modern Lithuania if it didn't join. The ideas and possabitites there are endless. Does the polish border move west? Before the was it was only like 50 miles from Minsk. Possible maybe some new comonwealth even.
Noting that a larger nation offsets Russia and Germany. Plus if Hitler is long dead, I don't think the Germans we go all out on Poland, a solution would be made on Danzig for Germany and a joint free corridor for Poland.
Germany would still absorb Austria at some point. But after that, I'm not too sure Germany is going to go over the deep end.
This is one where I believe the war is west vs comunisim..
So what happens if the US does Lend-Lease but only for the WAllies and China, and the Soviets are left out of the deal?
Then the west continues as they do. If the Germans are still at war with the soviets and Japan with the USA.. The Germans are buried in the abyss meat grinder that is the Soviet union.. The west will eventually invade.. China is still hosed until Japan is brought to its knees.
If the Germans don't win by 45-46 it doesn't matter in the west. Bomb comes along.
If they have terms with everyone in the west and are just focused on the soviets, we'll the soviets are in a bad spot, not saying they will loose or win, but this is a massively different war with no Hitler..
If the Soviets survive and the Nazis eventually get exhausted, is the Soviet Union weakened enough to be taken out by the WAllies after the Nazis surrender?
I would think that if the soviets are still fighting a war of exhaustion and haven't turned the tide themselves then maybe. The honest best chance is have the soviets not with the nazis officially, but also not with the allies, the allies painting the soviets as aggressors and no better than the Germans 39-until Germans invade them in the media and through political means would be enough to make it hard to be buddy buddy.
Then all you need is Stalin to bite a Russian retirement plan to the head or a dacha in nyrlsk..
If you get the Germans to make Moscow and lenningrad.. War is basically over for stalin. At least alot tougher to fight in European Russia.. Not saying they would get complete victory in all of Russia..
After the war is over no potsdam deceleration or yalta and you could have Eastern Europe free and the soviets in a hard place
Just again.. No Hitler and alot of this will be vastly different if it happens at all
Because there isn't enough in it for the Soviet Union - as the very source you quote makes clear. The Germans wanted the Soviets out of Finland and the Balkans - the Soviet wanted in. Etc.
Apart from the territorial issues, the trade exchange was the sort of thing that went on (and goes on) between less developed and more developed countries: the ones supply raw materials, the others send back finished advanced goods.
The Germans roll sixes and the USSR crit 1s the open stages of Barabrossa. Stalingrad falls, Stalin executes Zhukov and Timeshenko for failures, doubles down on offensives that waste manpower before he himself dies of a heart attack at a critical juncture. The USSR caves into infighting and signs a humiliating peace treaty that allows the Reich to rape her resoucres for a few years. Germany meanwhile squres off against a nuclear West after Japan falls. Trapped behind the Urals, the USSR falls into civil war and splinters apart. The Allies eventually blast their way into Germany with atomic bombs, crushing Germany with superior industry after a long bitter struggle that levels Europe. Germany and the USSR never recover, the Anglo Americans sit as the grim hegemons over a shattered world.
The Wallies perform operation pike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pike
Hitler still does not trust Stalin and does not bring him fully into the Axis and still launches operation Barbarossa in 1941. Although Stalin attacks British India through Afghanistan and makes some progress but does not conquer it before the Americans begin to arrive in force.
The War becomes a 3 way war with Churchill seeing the attack as Axis fighting amongst themselves as an opportunity rather than a potential ally. The germans push further east without lend lease. Allies land in early 1945. Berlin is nuked in August of 1945 killing Hitler and causing a german civil war as some attempt to make peace and others want to continue the war. Allies demand unconditional surrender of the Soviets which the Soviets accept after Stalin's death. Possibly one or 2 Russian cities are destroyed such as Vladivostok. War ends sometime around 1947-50 with the US as the sole superpower.
Hitler still does not trust Stalin and does not bring him fully into the Axis and still launches operation Barbarossa in 1941. Although Stalin attacks British India through Afghanistan and makes some progress but does not conquer it before the Americans begin to arrive in force.
The War becomes a 3 way war with Churchill seeing the attack as Axis fighting amongst themselves as an opportunity rather than a potential ally. The germans push further east without lend lease. Allies land in early 1945. Berlin is nuked in August of 1945 killing Hitler and causing a german civil war as some attempt to make peace and others want to continue the war. Allies demand unconditional surrender of the Soviets which the Soviets accept after Stalin's death. Possibly one or 2 Russian cities are destroyed such as Vladivostok. War ends sometime around 1947-50 with the US as the sole superpower.