AHC: Make Japan majority Christian by 1900
- Thread starter Tamara
- Start date
Maybe Nestorians are able to enter Japan very early and influence the culture. Or Kubelai Khan converts to Christianity and conquered successfully Japan. Implements Christianity.
It might not be specifically Nestorian, but an early presence of a Christian sect in Japan could be possible, and closely contemporary with the introduction of Buddhism. Odds are though, unless Buddhism is less influential in China and Korea, it's going to be difficult for a Christian community to compete.
If we have to go for the more traditional choice - Spanish and Portuguese arriving in Japan at the height of Sengoku age, bringing firearms and Jesuits with them - I am guessing a more successful, more lasting, domain of Oda Nobunaga (especially if openly converts) - should be the most logical bet, in my mind.
But then a Oda or ATL Tokugawa shogunate (let's assuming at the time Ieyasu would convert to win Nobunaga's trust, then winning Sekigahara and so on) should put in discussion the matter of Imperial rule and Shinto as state religion. It could sparkle a religious war in Japan the Ikko Ikki would be a cakewalk in comparison.
But then a Oda or ATL Tokugawa shogunate (let's assuming at the time Ieyasu would convert to win Nobunaga's trust, then winning Sekigahara and so on) should put in discussion the matter of Imperial rule and Shinto as state religion. It could sparkle a religious war in Japan the Ikko Ikki would be a cakewalk in comparison.
That's a difficult sell. Nobunaga was an atheist who kept the Catholics as a counterbalance to other Buddhists, even the Jesuits took note of his atheism. Unless you had a Christianity that could allow traditional beliefs and a divine right of kings for the emperor. Power structure Nobunaga would have to power and loyal vassals to accept this, and we can only go off theoreticals for how a Chugoku, Shikoku, Kyushu and Kanto Campaign would go, especially because a different Kanto campaign could see Ieyasu with a much smaller and weaker powerbase.
When did Catholicism neglect traditional beliefs? They sure did not desecrate that which existed in Europe. Was there a certain mentality towards traditional beliefs in Japan that did not exist in Europe among Catholics?
It happened a millennium later than the conversion in Europe, and the Catholic hierarchy was a far more established factor by then. A weaker or more desperate Catholic Church would likely have done better and been more willing to adapt to local beliefs. The Catholic Church have always been more willing to adapt and change in Europe, because other actors in Europe was a potential threat to the Church Hierarchy, it was why we saw the Counter-Reformation. But changing for a relative irrelevant realm, on the other side of the world, was never really worth it. We would need to Spain-Portugal to think that a Catholic Japan was of such importance, that they would use political capital in Europe to make the Church compromise on the issue. I think a good POD could be no-Iberian Union at the time, which would make the Portuguese more likely to spend that political capital on strengthening Catholicism in the Far East.
From what I understand, Portugal did find Japan important. Especially in regards to the perception that Japan could lead to conquests and entry of Catholicism into China and Korea.
Yes but obvious not important enough, or they simply lacked the political capital to push a religious compromise through. I suspect the latter, which was why I thought that a independent Portugal would have been better able to do so.
But they still tended to incorporate a decent amount of local beliefs when missionizing, catholicism in Mexico is a prime example.
Missionaries have a lot of room for incorporating things, because this wasn’t states they dealt with but individual subjects of the Spanish or Portuguese crowns, as such Rome could pretty much ignore local difference. In Japan they dealt with people who wasn’t subjects to Christian kings.
If said Shogun did convert, they would be dealing with such. I agree with you that a religious compromise between the monarch in Japan and the Papacy could be difficult. Though, the Papacy is already weak, and giving outstanding concessions to every monarch in Europe, so I do not see why even more concession cannot be given to Japan.
It is not as if we are dealing with Boniface VIII or Innocent III.
I'm talking issues with traditional Japanese beliefs, what to do about Shinto-Buddhist aspects, especially when they factored into several Japanese ideas. This could turn out to be an ATL Chinese Rites Controversy, where the practice of honoring one's ancestors was considered incompatible with Roman Catholicism. During what is the from the late 1560s onward when the Reformation and Counter-Reformation are in full swing.
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Admiral Fischer
Banned
So long as there is a political will to force through, there is no inherent cultural aspect in Japan that prohibits itself from changing or even reinventing its religious traditions. See no further than the Meiji Restoration. Eating meat was taboo to the Japanese since ancient times, now it's a part of their daily cuisine. That is, not to say that there wouldn't be oppositions to drastic changes, and whether such changes can be imposed upon the whole country during the height of Japanese feudalism is yet another question.
As for the 'divine right' problem, for all intentions and purposes, the emperor and his imperial court had only one role of recognizing and providing legitimacy of warlords, besides of those ceremonial activities such as producing era names, and as I understand it there's nothing forbidding Christians from receiving offices and posts from pagan court.
It was a big controversy between orders. You had the Jesuits being somewhat willing to adapt, following Ignacio's bad experience in India but other orders were very protective of the latin rites.
Of course, it's not JUST an issue of rites and religion. There's competition between orders but also between countries as some orders were more clearly aligned with Spain/Portugal compared to the Jesuits who were trying to be more transnationals (directly in contact with the Pope).
Regarding Japan, it's a big question of how many daimios converted to get guns and avoid being bombarded by Portuguese ships and how many truly believed in it. It didn't help that Francis-Xavier was virulently anti-buddhist.
I'm thinking a less virulent Francis-Xavier and a more agressive attempt at proselytising in concert with trade (something that only came way later) would give you a stronger base in the South
There were large numbers of Japanese Christians before Tokugawa had them all killed.
Have him allow the faith, and let it continue to grow.
Have him allow the faith, and let it continue to grow.