In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time

Slow recovery, but the rot remains. Instead of great nobles controlling everything, the Church does. And while the Church is placated for now, they will eventually clash with the monarch for power.

Furthermore, the newly empowered middle class won’t be seeing any large increases in growth. All education is still under the preview of the Church and you can expect varying competence. As such, the middle clash will soon stagnate as monopolies come to fruition without much competition.

As for Portugal, well we all saw this coming. However, I didn’t expect the English (and minor entrepreneurial Germans) to make investments into Portugal. Or the sheer amount of immigrants leaving Portugal. Hmmmm...

True. To be fair to the Empress, it's hard to change religion...and it's even harden when the faith is big foundation of the Empire. Remove that, and the number of rebellions is going to massively increase. And yes, the middle class won't get the achievements it would gain in a moderate capitalist society.

Investments from foreigners in the Portuguese markets remain modest, but TTL Portugal is significant smaller and poorer than it was with OTL frontiers. So of course, even small investments are critically important for Luis IV and his regime at a moment more Portuguese are willing to get out of the sinking ship.
 
I could see some immigration to the new world but that the majority of portuguese to leave is kind of not realistic to me, especialy to the point for foreigner to replace them. I can't buy it.
 
Really? That's the history of our world. Millions of people have been displaced to flee wars. Here, Portugal had already lost territory to Spain, a country who isn't the most stable and after the recent atrocities that can be repeated I can see the people who have the means deciding enough is enough. I mean how many Portuguese kings were competent in the last century?
 
Summer Revival (Ottoman Empire 1902-1910)


When it came down to it, the Ottoman Empire was undoubtedly one of the nations which had the best conquests/investment ratios of the Great War. The Sublime Porte didn’t even have to declare war: all it had to do was to wait for the Omani and Persian rule to collapse under the strain of war and economic exhaustion before marching forwards. Mesopotamia was retaken and once again the Ottomans had access to the Persian Gulf.

The celebrations at Istanbul and in the major cities were particularly long and sonorous. From the old walls to the mosques on the Asiatic side of the Bosphorus, the wealthy and the poor celebrated this turn of events. For the first time in living memory, the Empire had not seen its borders shrunk further inwards, but extended them. And since the expedition to reoccupy Mesopotamia was led by a scion of the House of Osman, it did not take long for a Sultan to return to the top.

More than four hundred years after the fall of Constantinople, a Sultan called Mehmed was once again living in Topkapi Palace and was acclaimed by cheering crowds. The Mesopotamian Mosque was planned by several of the best Imperial architects in 1904 and its construction would last only five years before every visitor could admire its green dome and its four minarets.

This reassertion was costly for many powerful families of Istanbul and Izmir. For several decades, Great Viziers had been content to abandon foreign ventures and tighten their grip on the Ottoman society they thought they could trust. This long work was brutally broken and Mehmed began to give land grants to new officers who had climbed up in the ranks. Many of these new settlements were in Mesopotamia, but the possessions seized from several Viziers were also included in the lot.

By 1905, the Ottoman Empire had a population of eighteen million, and optimism was definitely everywhere. Many great public works were ordered in the capital and elsewhere to repair what earthquakes and neglect had done to mosques and great monuments of the past. Architects and artisans had the opportunity to prove they had nothing to be ashamed when compared to masters of the past. Between Europe and Asia, the Ottoman Empire assimilated many of the rising tendencies now spreading out from the Great Powers and made them its own. Reforms were made in language and education.

But all was definitely not well in the Ottoman Empire. While it had returned Bagdad and Mesopotamia to the fold, these were poor and destitute lands they were now forced to administer. The east required more investment in infrastructure, education and military oversight than ever. The Persians had stagnated and done little to make the once prosperous valley attractive; it was the Ottomans’ dubious privilege to correct this scandalous behaviour.

Naturally, these efforts cost a lot of money. The same was true of the pet projects of Sultan Mehmed and his main advisors. But to acquire this money was more and more a problem. With the Suez Canal a gateway to India, Batavia and China, no longer the Europeans needed to buy from the Empire. The Muslim scientists, healers, innovators and mathematicians who had once been the leading experts in their fields were now badly lagging behind the universities of Paris, London, Vienna and Copenhagen. Porcelain and mosaic were now produced at will west of Budapest. The demand for the famed Ottoman carpets could not compensate for the devouring needs of the Ottoman aristocracy in luxury products coming from the French Empire.

It was little surprise, as a result, that Istanbul was heavily indebted to the Bourbon state and other foreign investors. The tax system was described in three words: unfair, discriminatory and inefficient. Reforms succeeded to other reforms, but the problems remained. The Ottoman administration was incredibly corrupt even by the most permissive standards, and every exchange, law and arrangement required copious amounts of graft to work.

The military, in the meantime, required more funds and new weapons. Weapons the Ottoman industry was constantly unable to deliver in large quantities. There were centres of Industry in Europe and Asia, but they were all dispersed between the Bosphorus and the Anatolian region. Most battleships and specialised machinery were imported, often with the foreign engineers in the next wagons. The Empire needed brand-new trains, railroads and vehicles, and the Orient Express was not enough to hide the flaws of the modern European state.

There were some attempts – and military coups – to introduce a Parliament and some elections, but they went to nought and by 1910 Sultan Mehmed had restored the Ottoman regime to its absolutist state. It was not pleasing for the minorities like the Kurds and the Armenians, and to say the least the Ottoman army was forced to recruit more young men, not less.

The biggest threat, unfortunately, was external, not internal. From the moment the Great War ended, the general opinion in the streets was to recognise the French were no longer the more threatening opponent in the theatre. To be sure, King Louis XVIII had extended his rule on every continent, but Paris had not sent armies in their direction and not once had a French bishop declared in public it was imperative to bring back the cross to the city which had once upon a time been called the Second Rome.

This was not the case with Russia. The new Patriarch approved by Tsarina Anastasia was known to be a particularly anti-Muslim spokesperson and the size of the Russian armies in Transylvania had not decreased contrary to what had been promised in several Congresses. The last conquests of the carnivorous bear were ultimately a massive encirclement from the north and the east. It was threatening on a map, and it was little better in reality. New fortresses and artillery batteries were ordered, but when looking at the dome of Hagia Sophia, the inhabitants of Istanbul wondered how long the summer was going to last...


Note: you have two tries to guess where I went on holidays and the first doesn't count.
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Well, if the Russian attack the Ottoman I think they can count on the Greeks to jump in, and maybe the Serbs as well.
England might try to get land too.
 
Russia seems to fancy Middle Eastern Countries as a meal. If I had to guess, Persia was an appetizer, the Ottoman Empire is lunch, and everything not owned by France or an ally of France is dessert.
 
Tsargrad? :p

Looks like the Ottomans are trying to catch up but isn’t committing to a full on reform. They may have changed leadership to a more stable and competent one but the rot and inherent problems remain.
 
Well, if the Russian attack the Ottoman I think they can count on the Greeks to jump in, and maybe the Serbs as well.
England might try to get land too.

Yes, the friendship between the Greeks and the Ottomans is well-known. :biggrin:
More seriously, even if Greece and Serbia declare war on the first day, the Ottomans are not going to be that terrified. The two armies have lost a lot of men during the Great War and like the Ottomans, they lack a lot the heavy weapons and the training the Great Powers are taking for granted in an army corps.
The Sublime Porte can afford to remain on the defensive against them and beed them dry...they can't exactly do that with Russia.

England, on the other hand, is not going to involve itself save maybe in a few industrial interests. It's far from their area of influence, and if things get hot the supply line they will have to sustain doesn't bear thinking about.
Portugal was one thing. Constantinople is an entire different proposition.

Russia seems to fancy Middle Eastern Countries as a meal. If I had to guess, Persia was an appetizer, the Ottoman Empire is lunch, and everything not owned by France or an ally of France is dessert.

It's spicy, right. ;)
But yes, retaking Constantinople has always been a long-term ambition of several Russian sovereigns.

Tsargrad? :p

Looks like the Ottomans are trying to catch up but isn’t committing to a full on reform. They may have changed leadership to a more stable and competent one but the rot and inherent problems remain.

That or Romanovgrad or Anastasianople (or Anastasiapolis or Nicholasgrad...)...the list of possible names boggles the mind. ;)

Pretty much, for the Ottomans. Of course, full, unbridled reform looks very nice on paper but it's always a pain to make it a reality. And a lot of rulers always have difficulties keeping their heads when the changes in the social structure are getting unpopular. The new Sultan Mehmed does want to remain on the throne, you know...
 
Yes, the friendship between the Greeks and the Ottomans is well-known. :biggrin:
More seriously, even if Greece and Serbia declare war on the first day, the Ottomans are not going to be that terrified. The two armies have lost a lot of men during the Great War and like the Ottomans, they lack a lot the heavy weapons and the training the Great Powers are taking for granted in an army corps.
The Sublime Porte can afford to remain on the defensive against them and beed them dry...they can't exactly do that with Russia.
I thought the Greeks literally spent the entire war sitting around doing nothing?:p
I mean, sure, by themselves the Greeks and Serbs aren’t scary, but if they attack while the Russians are already going at it, I fully expect a nervous Breakdown from Ottomans High command :biggrin:
 
Let’s face it, there is no one who can challenge France or Russia even by themselves. Russia and France are only rivaled by each other, they are like Godzilla (Russia) and France (Ghidorah).
 
I thought the Greeks literally spent the entire war sitting around doing nothing?:p
I mean, sure, by themselves the Greeks and Serbs aren’t scary, but if they attack while the Russians are already going at it, I fully expect a nervous Breakdown from Ottomans High command :biggrin:

For the Greeks that's mostly the truth, but one of the reasons why they effectively did this (though they never admitted it to their allies) was the fact they had already quite taken an enormous butcher bill in the conflict before the great War. Their army was still fragile, and internal instability could easily become a new civil war if the army got trashed in a failed offensive.
And they still took casualties, mainly in the last year, but also the fact the nation was not self-sufficient and the various diseases epidemics which always plague armies since the dawn of time.
Greece is not France, so even these light or very light casualties were not made good.

But yeah, if a coalition Serbia-Greece-Russia decides to stop bickering (it's the Balkans, eh...) and agrees on a coordinated offensive, the strategists based at Istanbul are going to hear the thunder and see the smoke and fires rapidly come towards their capital. Between these three, 100% of their European frontier is now in contact with an enemy, and on the Asian side, the ones who are not are the Bedouins (who spent centuries fighting and killing Ottomans) the French and the Omani...it's really, really not good.

Let’s face it, there is no one who can challenge France or Russia even by themselves. Russia and France are only rivaled by each other, they are like Godzilla (Russia) and France (Ghidorah).

That's somewhat true...but there are countries which could put up a fight alone (like the UPNG or Southern China) and if one of the two giants is onvolved in a war somewhere, it has to be careful that the rival competitor is not seizing the opprtunity for a massive land grab while it is unable to intervene.
 
I think Russia is too greedy and it will explode in their face. I mean how many minorities (very badly treated to stay polite) are inside their border? How many people aren't Russian inside their border? How many are looking for any weakness? The Ottoman Empire isn't a Great Power but it is still a Regional Power that have debt to France. I don't think France trust Russia anymore, at least not the Empress. And well, without the protection of France, how many countries would jump the gun? Poland, Austria-Hungry, China, Japan, California, Carolinas, UPNG, Ottoman... Not exactly light weight and put together against the same target without fear of reprisal by France. On contrary, France could even help them in goods and make an embargo against Russia.

I'm sure some of you are thinking "Now why would France do that?", it is a very cheap way in blood and money (for France, not the others) to bring down a peg or two an insolent ally/rival and an excellent precedent to show to some allies with bad ideas. Sure, it can backfire really bad, really fast but letting your enemies torn each other apart without lifting a finger while at the same time you are reinforcing yourselves on their blood and wealth... Well, look at OTL USA, without WWI and WWII, the USA wouldn't be the tenth of their actual strength, the different European Empire would still existed too and still be the holders of most the world power. Here, France is already a superpower, so such a tactic would probably have even more results.
 
My guess the French don't want to see Russia in controle of Constantinople. So if war happen the French will unoficially help the Ottoman with weapons and military advisors.
 
My guess the French don't want to see Russia in controle of Constantinople. So if war happen the French will unoficially help the Ottoman with weapons and military advisors.
All the advisors in the world can't help the Ottomans. Russia has about 200 million people if I had to gues, including about 150-180 million loyal peoples. They can just do what they did in 1900 and drown the Ottomans in blood, and that won't even be necessary since Russia actually beats the Ottomans in quality and equipment (a rarity for Russia in any timeline).

I can see Russia also taking some of the Northeast provinces, making Trabzon and Erzerum part of the Empire "for their own good".
 
All the advisors in the world can't help the Ottomans. Russia has about 200 million people if I had to gues, including about 150-180 million loyal peoples. They can just do what they did in 1900 and drown the Ottomans in blood, and that won't even be necessary since Russia actually beats the Ottomans in quality and equipment (a rarity for Russia in any timeline).

I can see Russia also taking some of the Northeast provinces, making Trabzon and Erzerum part of the Empire "for their own good".
Sure but no reason to make it any easy for Russia.
 
Sure but no reason to make it any easy for Russia.
Russia could take 3 times the Ottoman's losses and not get slowed down. I don't like Russia too much (I prefer good old Bengal), but I'm being realistic. Though I do hope Russia can get some nonpuppet allies to balance out against France's coalition.
 
I think Russia is too greedy and it will explode in their face. I mean how many minorities (very badly treated to stay polite) are inside their border? How many people aren't Russian inside their border? How many are looking for any weakness? The Ottoman Empire isn't a Great Power but it is still a Regional Power that have debt to France. I don't think France trust Russia anymore, at least not the Empress. And well, without the protection of France, how many countries would jump the gun? Poland, Austria-Hungry, China, Japan, California, Carolinas, UPNG, Ottoman... Not exactly light weight and put together against the same target without fear of reprisal by France. On contrary, France could even help them in goods and make an embargo against Russia.

I'm sure some of you are thinking "Now why would France do that?", it is a very cheap way in blood and money (for France, not the others) to bring down a peg or two an insolent ally/rival and an excellent precedent to show to some allies with bad ideas. Sure, it can backfire really bad, really fast but letting your enemies torn each other apart without lifting a finger while at the same time you are reinforcing yourselves on their blood and wealth... Well, look at OTL USA, without WWI and WWII, the USA wouldn't be the tenth of their actual strength, the different European Empire would still existed too and still be the holders of most the world power. Here, France is already a superpower, so such a tactic would probably have even more results.

Too many, far too many. To be sure, the majority is still Russian, but if there were concerted revolts from all minorities, it would be a hell of a civil war.
For the moment, not many nations would jump the gun...except the Ottomans, the kingdoms, republics and empire have been bled white by the Great War. But what is impossible now might be completely different in twenty years.

Good thing Russia isn't into making allies, or another Great War (or just a Cold War with massive tension and military buildup) would be right around the corner. Imagine if Chuan China, Japan, and some other nations which hate France joined the Russian side? I kinda hope Russia gets some allies (read: puppets) or just decently-tough nations who need Russia to counter the French and France's allies, otherwise France has a 100% chance of winning a war with them.

Imagine if Chuan China and Russia made an alliance, French India and Bengal would freak out.

Btw, what is Russia's population? And out of that, how many are ethnic Russian?

Don't forget that while for exemple Chuan China doesn't like France (they fought by virtue of being in opposite blocks) it was the Russians who made a mess of Northern China and sold the weapons which killed hundreds of thousands Chinese. France isn't liked because it's one of the 'foreign devils'. Russia is loathed and the unwritten order if that should you meet a Russian soldier spying inside Chinese territory, the minimum is to kill him slowly.
Stranger things can and have happened, but an alliance between those two nations would be like Hitler allying with Stalin OTL. Sooner or later, one is going to betray the other and launch vast armies in an act of spite and hate.

Have't calculated the Russian population for now.

My guess the French don't want to see Russia in controle of Constantinople. So if war happen the French will unoficially help the Ottoman with weapons and military advisors.

On this point the Ottomans are probably the 'least bad option' around. It allows France not to bother with a military occupation of a vital strategic point, and the country having it is not a Great Power so they can invade and take it if it really becomes necessary.

All the advisors in the world can't help the Ottomans. Russia has about 200 million people if I had to gues, including about 150-180 million loyal peoples. They can just do what they did in 1900 and drown the Ottomans in blood, and that won't even be necessary since Russia actually beats the Ottomans in quality and equipment (a rarity for Russia in any timeline).

I can see Russia also taking some of the Northeast provinces, making Trabzon and Erzerum part of the Empire "for their own good".

In theory, Russia can do that. In practise...they will need large garrisons across the Empire to hold it and a lot of troops can't be send soaking up the bullets before the commanders wake up one morning to realise that for example one or two division of Mandchu-recruited troops have decided it's much better to mutiny and kill the servants of the Tsarina rather than losing their lives storming forts the old-fashioned way.
Russia at the moment can't put down all the small rebellions and afford another war. The Great War was also a significant drain of manpower for them, and even Russians, used to serve an autocrat, do not like very much spending decades after decades on the frontlines as entire army corps are reduced to mere regiments and then companies.

And nobody at Moscow is under any illusion taking Istanbul is going to be easy. The Ottomans know the Russians are the most likely opponent they're going to face for the next survival challenge, and it's not exactly like the defenders will have a lot of difficulty discovering the deployment of Russian armies. Moreover, they will have to break through on the naval side too, because if the Ottomans can reinforce constantly the city from the eastern side, the siege will rapidly turn into an attrition nightmare.
In the kind of city fighting and fortress-breaking offensives that will be needed to take Ottoman Europe, any invader will need to fight the best armies of the Sublime Porte, and those will be well-entrenched, adequately supplied for the short and the middle term, and of course extremely motivated (if the tales of what Russia does in its annexed territory to non-Orthodox rebels doesn't motivate them, I don't know what will).
In the long term, the Russian victory is likely unavoidable. But taking Constantinople might be the crucible inflicting the first death blow to the apparently invincible Russian Bear.
 
Im fairly certain Russia isn’t up for any foreign adventure land anytime soon. Soon as in a hundred or so years crushing the massive amounts of territory it annexed.

That and the Ottomans have a trump card if worst comes to worst. They do what they did a while back and just sell some territory to France in return for a full commitment into a defensive war. (What exactly do the Ottomans hold now besides Anatolia and a bit of Greece?)
 
Im fairly certain Russia isn’t up for any foreign adventure land anytime soon. Soon as in a hundred or so years crushing the massive amounts of territory it annexed.

That and the Ottomans have a trump card if worst comes to worst. They do what they did a while back and just sell some territory to France in return for a full commitment into a defensive war. (What exactly do the Ottomans hold now besides Anatolia and a bit of Greece?)

In a rational world, I'm sure war would be a prospect recognised as not affordable and thus put back in dusty boxes and forgotten in some old forgotten archives. We don't live ina very rational world.

This is not a very good idea. First, unless you sell the territory before the first Russian boot has taken it, France is going to refuse point-blank the sell. Yes, Paris don't want Moscow expanding further and beginning a rampage in Constantinople and Anatolia. Do they want instead to be suckered in a long and unpleasant war for the pretty eyes of the Ottomans? No, they don't. If the Sublime Porte tried a stunt forcing France to begin a new world war when they don't want it, they would be hell to pay, and while the Bourbon sovereigns are not as ruthless as the tsars, there are plenty of ways the Sultan and his subjects can rue the day they chose this strategy.
The Ottomans hold right at this moment Eastern Thrace and the neighbouring regions, Constantinople, Anatolia, some Caucasus lands, Mesopotamia, Syria, OTL Lebanon some Palestinian lands and the coastal lands of the Red Sea on the Mecca side. But selling any of these lands would be very much the beginning of the end, because it would be tantamount to admit they can't be the defenders of the Muslims and fight against the infidels and other unbelievers. And when the first domino falls...
 
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