I agree. Anyone who knows the numbers involved would know the Allied army was doomed in the end but reality and facts haven't stopped people from distorting facts or even making up excuses for why nations lose battles and wars. Just look at OTL American South's "Lost Cause" and the Nazi "Stabbed in the Back" myths. I could definitely see a sort of "We could have prevailed over the dastardly Greeks if it wasn't for those traitorous Hungarians" ideology spring up later TTL.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
I agree. Anyone who knows the numbers involved would know the Allied army was doomed in the end but reality and facts haven't stopped people from distorting facts or even making up excuses for why nations lose battles and wars. Just look at OTL American South's "Lost Cause" and the Nazi "Stabbed in the Back" myths. I could definitely see a sort of "We could have prevailed over the dastardly Greeks if it wasn't for those traitorous Hungarians" ideology spring up later TTL.
This chapter could have been titled the Hunt for Theodor, just saying. 
Well, Thessaloniki was the graveyard of the Alliance and Theodor is insane. The latter's escape through what should have been territory under his control illustrates perfectly what a monumental fiasco this war has been.
Rhoman armies are next door with the fall of Belgrade and Hungary changing sides...I think the war is not going to last further than 1635, the Germans have nothing more to fight with.
Well, Thessaloniki was the graveyard of the Alliance and Theodor is insane. The latter's escape through what should have been territory under his control illustrates perfectly what a monumental fiasco this war has been.
Rhoman armies are next door with the fall of Belgrade and Hungary changing sides...I think the war is not going to last further than 1635, the Germans have nothing more to fight with.
The Allies are crippled but in order for Demetrios III to send a clear message like "don't mess with us in the future" we need to see some further disasters . Perhaps a Latin major city (not just Dachau) razed to the ground. How about Vienna?
A proper name for Anna would be Βασιλοκτόνος (Vasiloktonos, King-slayer).
A proper name for Anna would be Βασιλοκτόνος (Vasiloktonos, King-slayer).
I suspect that the Hungarians would object, maybe Munich would be a better option considering they should be able to reach it.
Over the last few campaign seasons the Allies have used probably around 150,000 total troops in their attempted invasion of Rome. Theodore returned with 3. This is a casualty rate of 99.998%. No one is going to be itching for a another invasion for a long time after this.
Also D3s logic wasn’t to appear crazy/violent it was to make it clear that Rome couldn’t be swallowed whole and was capable of defending itself. Killing all the captured nobles, of which I’m sure there are hundreds, is not only a waste of a good revenue stream but also than makes Roman diplomacy impossible in the West. Those Roman nobles are going to have relatives/friends/associates in every country who would be pretty upset at the barbarism shown. Last thing Rome needs right now is to turn the Accord and Lotharingia against them when they’ve already gained the upper hand.
I think that you might be overly cautious about the Accord and Lotharingia. They've stated that the Romans aren't to take territory in Italy, that has been agreed, they've said nothing about completing the other part of the war.
Taking it further than just "We can defend ourselves" to "You will die if you try, and your homes will burn from now on, not ours"
Again, whilst there is vast economic damage done to Germany - only a fraction of that has been done by the Romans raids. Most of that is self-inflicted. Meanwhile the Balkans have again been used as a stomping ground in an invasion.
If turnabout is fair play, and the Romans want to remind the Latins to not mess with them, something needs to burn. I don't think it is going to happen, personally, as it looks like we're on the cusp of a negotiation.
Then again, I'm team "Take Vienna", which doesn't really work when it might be Hungarian post-war. (Which, IMO, should really have been Theodor's warning. Hungary was basically crippled in a single war, just like the HRE may just have been.)
Because Greeks are supposed to be civilized and follow the rules of war, such as they are at the time? Because afterwards you have given a loud and clear message "never ever surrender to the Greeks, you are better off fighting to the death, after all they'll kill you anyway even if you surrender?
The stated goals... when 100,000+ Greek armies will be storming Vienna and Munich for real in the next couple campaign seasons and helping out Prussia, Pronsk and Lithuania wreck poor Poland are going to be taken care of.
Unlikely, imho. The second round with the Ottomans is coming in 7 years. If they want to smash them they have to give it a rest (militarily, economically and logistically). To boot Demetrios if I recall correctly is not blind to the Triune threat in Asia.
I still think we are going to see a city burn. I just don’t think we are going to see the wholesale execution of German nobles. Yes the accord and Lotharingia and Spain would all care if the Romans executed a couple hundred nobles including some dukes and princes and that’s not even getting into personal relationships. At this time nobles are considered “better” than normal people merely by virtue of their birth. To treat them like common criminals would absolutely isolate Rome for at least a generation. Latin Europe might be scared of Rome as a result but it would be disastrous politically.
I don't know where the slaughter of nobles came from, but ok, I agree.
Personally, I think that the Hungary switch is "Good" but creates the vital problem of no great bastion to replace Belgrade (which needs a serious upgrade after this war) under Roman control. I always thought Vienna would be great for this, as it'd also be the best place from which to deploy a punitive campaign if it was ever needed, at least if you also wanted to guard against an invasion.
However, there is a little bit of me that wonders what is going to happen to Salzburg. It isn't as easily supplied as Vienna, but it is further west, and does connect to Italy. It could be that bastion on the edge of Germany that can be used for the same purpose, if less effectively.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast this is where I was arguing against mass executions. Not sure how I ended up debating it with you exactly but it was fun nonetheless. We seem to be more or less on the same page overall with what Rome wants to do though I do question even Rome's ability to project power deep into Austria once the war is over.
Id say most likely is that Vidin and Belgrade get turned into massive fortresses with garrisons in the order of 10-15k each garrisoned solely by Roman troops. Depending on what Hungary looks like there could also be another fortress or two in Hungary/Austria that has a mixed garrison of Hungarians and Romans. The main problem is that even though Hungary may be on the Roman side now they really don't like Rome. Hungary was looking at the death of their nation if they didn't switch sides and so picked the winning horse. As soon as they think they can get away with it I expect Hungary will turn neutral; which still serves Roman designs for the region as Hungary alone is not a threat to Rome at all.
Serbia may be an independent kingdom now but I expect that Rome is going to make them sign all sorts of trade deals and basing rights that will mean dejure they are about as independent as Scythia with the added bonus of a powerful Roman garrison sitting in their capital and smaller ones in major cities. Rome will not take the risk of the Hungary/Serbia corridor being used again as an avenue of invasion.
Long term I still see Rome pushing Sicily up to a border more or less as a line along Civitavecchia, Spoleto, Ancona; pulling Serbia fully into the Roman sphere along with Dalmatia, Ragusa, Vlachia, and Scythia; pushing the middle east back along a line of Mosul, Palmyra, Damascus; help Egypt down to the first cataract, and consolidate in Libya and Tunisia. This makes a Roman sphere that utterly dominates the Central and Eastern Med along with the near East and also has secure borders facing Europe. Hungary/Austria while more than close enough for punitive expeditions and even sustained campaigns could not be held long term even in limited form without significant spilling of blood and treasure.
Even if the casualties of Thessaloniki the Empire still has 200,000 soldiers mobilised for war. In comparison the Germans have lost almost everything.
If they do decide to jointly invade with the Hungarians what’s 20,000 Bohemians + 10,000 Wittelsbach levies + whatever’s left going to do?
Heck I’d say divert some to Italy, but it looks like that theatre will take care of itself.
If they do decide to jointly invade with the Hungarians what’s 20,000 Bohemians + 10,000 Wittelsbach levies + whatever’s left going to do?
Heck I’d say divert some to Italy, but it looks like that theatre will take care of itself.
Cryostorm
Monthly Donor
I think you missed the point of his logic, to him the Latins will always view it as the Greeks being effeminate and using gold and perfidious tactics to win victories, of which Rhome can point to several in the last four hundred years alone, so no act of arms can affect that. The problem is that it has always been the Latins invading and Rhome kicking them out with little in returning to do the same, with the notable exception of Venice and, to lesser extents, southern Italy and Hungary which don't count to them since they are right next door. So his idea is essentially to visit pillage and rapine upon their lands to show them war with Rhome won't just cost them gold and soldiers, which the devastation of Lombardy, the Great Bavarian Raid, and whatever is about to happen to Poland will do as a start though the real threat of the Triunes still remains.
Funnily enough though, I think Henry may have been too clever and made a mistake here. While this has obviously made the Triunes the western power it has also essentially alienated his nation from everyone else. Except for the Ottomans, who will have their own problems in a decade or so, who exactly will be willing to ally with the Triunes at this point? Any war Rhome v Triune war will likely include Mexico and possibly Arles, Spain, and the EAN which would badly over stretch the Triune navy, which I think will never be as over dominant as the the British Empire's since the Triunes have to field a far larger army that the British ever did.
@Basileus444 is D3's triple curse known outside Rhomania? How are the Latins and Ottomans reacting to their accuracy so far?
Edit: Also how is Elizabeth taking to D3's unexpected and undeniable competency, as well as Bavaria's unexpected vulnerability to Roman raids?
Edit: Also how is Elizabeth taking to D3's unexpected and undeniable competency, as well as Bavaria's unexpected vulnerability to Roman raids?
Vince
Monthly Donor
It was mentioned in an earlier post that the Hungarians just made D3's job easier. He would've won either way Skoupi was blocked off there was nowhere for the Allies to run. Rome has already shown it's not a good idea to attack them. The Emperor of the HRE just lost an entire field army on top of his losses in previous years, bankrupted itself and had its core territory ravaged. Now he's insane and confined to his quarters. Every other Latin heavyweight just saw what would happen if they invaded the Empire an army of 200k men could be brought to bear against them. I don't think any other country like the Triune or Spanish will even think of attacking the Roman heartland for quite some time.
Sounds like this is only phase 1 of the war. I know there's some arc fatigue (IIRC the ToT had 3 phases?) but I really want to see the Romans invade Germany. D3 can't finish up without razing a city or two to the ground.
It'd cost a lot in blood and gold, but like the Joker said, it's not about the money, it's about sending a message.
It'd cost a lot in blood and gold, but like the Joker said, it's not about the money, it's about sending a message.
Evilprodigy
Donor
I've never had so many people quote me from this thread, it was weird coming online and seeing so much when this is someone else's timeline. Six alerts and a few other people talking but not quoting. It would take far too long to respond to everyone so I'll just go by points or general themes.
I think many of you guys are thinking about it far too logically and detached. Maybe I wasn't fully clear but these arguments about '200,000 soldiers' or that the Hungarians made it easier but still it was inevitable or that Greeks are supposed to be civilized sort of miss the mark. Don't think about this with our sensibilities as a reader. Think about how an incredibly racist person thinks a different cultural group he thinks is utterly barbaric would respond to this.
D3's mind is good mind you but what I'm bringing up is his, and his alone, motivations and thoughts about the Latins. Don't get me wrong, I agree that any sane person would look at the Rhomans and think they shouldn't mess with them but I'm talking about the motivations of a very different person. This is the man who wrote, "A clever maneuver that cuts off their logistics will not be enough. They will merely make some excuse about ‘Greek perfidy’ as they have always done to cover up their shortcomings, and then resume the cycle." but yet still cut off logistics before the battle. He also said “the Latin at his core only truly respects brute force.” So while Hungary turning traitor is great for the battle it defeats the purpose of "inflict[ing] such a slaughter upon the Latin invaders that they will foul themselves at the mere thought of trying such again. That they will realize that it is not 1196 or 1204 any longer; that we have indeed put on iron. And perhaps, after we have killed enough of them, they will finally learn."
This is why I recommend the incredibly stupid and barbaric thing as executing the noble prisoners en masse. It would shock and disturb the people of Europe to know so many nobles died facing the Rhomans. I am well aware, and Demetrios is as well, that you don't treat the nobles like that and instead ransom them. But Demetrios's goals here seem to be far more violent and poorly grounded, fuelled by particular Rhoman xenophobia towards the Latin West. If he wants to send a message he will do it in blood, as he said. So while yes he probably shouldn't, I think it would be in character for him to do so. It doesn't matter what we think he should do, what matters is what a man like this would do.
Furthermore any argument about Rhoman mobilization is innately moot. D3 paid particular attention to how the Latins treat Muslims, as brave and chivalrous warriors, while the Rhomans are not. See this quote here, from the update and not D3's exact words as the ones above are: "Despite all that has happened, the Latins still think of the Romans as effeminate gold-wearers, not ones dressed in iron ready for battle and for slaughter. The Romans are rich and weak, the ideal victim. They do not care to cross swords with Muslims, for they have a tradition of fear and respect for Muslim blades. But not for Roman. And so they must be taught." It does not matter how many Rhomans are mobilized, they will simply be seen as having won by sheer numbers alone. D3 wants the west to understand that Rhomans are strong warriors, not just a swarm of peasant conscripts that tried to overawe the west with numbers, but instead a people who individually are capable of extreme violence and brutality when the need arises and can do so well. A big army is nothing new, Rhome's always had good organization, but that hasn't stopped the Latins in D3's eyes because they see Rhomans as weak and effeminate gold-lovers. It needs to be clear that these soldiers are mighty men too, and I think that D3 should see the Hungarians turning face as not going to achieve that goal of making Rhoman soldiery appear as particularly skilled and vicious killers in war. They will just appear as perfidious as always to the Latins in D3's mind, ascribing the victory to Rhoman organization, moneying, and diplomacy rather than Rhomans wearing iron and meeting blood with such a slaughter as to terrify the Latin west of even the thought of returning. Because D3 believes, "In the words of Tourmarch Mikrulakes the Latins ‘must be beaten with their own damn tune’. For at the end of the day the Latin only respects brute force."
I think many of you guys are thinking about it far too logically and detached. Maybe I wasn't fully clear but these arguments about '200,000 soldiers' or that the Hungarians made it easier but still it was inevitable or that Greeks are supposed to be civilized sort of miss the mark. Don't think about this with our sensibilities as a reader. Think about how an incredibly racist person thinks a different cultural group he thinks is utterly barbaric would respond to this.
D3's mind is good mind you but what I'm bringing up is his, and his alone, motivations and thoughts about the Latins. Don't get me wrong, I agree that any sane person would look at the Rhomans and think they shouldn't mess with them but I'm talking about the motivations of a very different person. This is the man who wrote, "A clever maneuver that cuts off their logistics will not be enough. They will merely make some excuse about ‘Greek perfidy’ as they have always done to cover up their shortcomings, and then resume the cycle." but yet still cut off logistics before the battle. He also said “the Latin at his core only truly respects brute force.” So while Hungary turning traitor is great for the battle it defeats the purpose of "inflict[ing] such a slaughter upon the Latin invaders that they will foul themselves at the mere thought of trying such again. That they will realize that it is not 1196 or 1204 any longer; that we have indeed put on iron. And perhaps, after we have killed enough of them, they will finally learn."
This is why I recommend the incredibly stupid and barbaric thing as executing the noble prisoners en masse. It would shock and disturb the people of Europe to know so many nobles died facing the Rhomans. I am well aware, and Demetrios is as well, that you don't treat the nobles like that and instead ransom them. But Demetrios's goals here seem to be far more violent and poorly grounded, fuelled by particular Rhoman xenophobia towards the Latin West. If he wants to send a message he will do it in blood, as he said. So while yes he probably shouldn't, I think it would be in character for him to do so. It doesn't matter what we think he should do, what matters is what a man like this would do.
Furthermore any argument about Rhoman mobilization is innately moot. D3 paid particular attention to how the Latins treat Muslims, as brave and chivalrous warriors, while the Rhomans are not. See this quote here, from the update and not D3's exact words as the ones above are: "Despite all that has happened, the Latins still think of the Romans as effeminate gold-wearers, not ones dressed in iron ready for battle and for slaughter. The Romans are rich and weak, the ideal victim. They do not care to cross swords with Muslims, for they have a tradition of fear and respect for Muslim blades. But not for Roman. And so they must be taught." It does not matter how many Rhomans are mobilized, they will simply be seen as having won by sheer numbers alone. D3 wants the west to understand that Rhomans are strong warriors, not just a swarm of peasant conscripts that tried to overawe the west with numbers, but instead a people who individually are capable of extreme violence and brutality when the need arises and can do so well. A big army is nothing new, Rhome's always had good organization, but that hasn't stopped the Latins in D3's eyes because they see Rhomans as weak and effeminate gold-lovers. It needs to be clear that these soldiers are mighty men too, and I think that D3 should see the Hungarians turning face as not going to achieve that goal of making Rhoman soldiery appear as particularly skilled and vicious killers in war. They will just appear as perfidious as always to the Latins in D3's mind, ascribing the victory to Rhoman organization, moneying, and diplomacy rather than Rhomans wearing iron and meeting blood with such a slaughter as to terrify the Latin west of even the thought of returning. Because D3 believes, "In the words of Tourmarch Mikrulakes the Latins ‘must be beaten with their own damn tune’. For at the end of the day the Latin only respects brute force."
Blitzkrieg in 1935?
More free labour?
As long as they hold Austria, it'll be hard to maintain that status.
Or maybe a few new despotates like Tyrrhenia, Lation and Ravenna (+Pentapolis). Maybe enlarge Venexia with just a little hinterland of the Veneto and elevate to its own despotate to provide a land connection to the Empire/make the Adriatic a Roman lake (almost, looking at you Black Mountain). Set the rest of the city states free again, maybe force them into the Arletian League as a concession to them, not before sucking rich Lombardy dry. All in all the Apennines make a pretty good border.
Stuff like this is like catnip for me. Minor world-building lines like this separates good fiction from great fiction and I appreciate that you take the time to include them. It makes this world feel so much richer and more vibrant when I can picture people buying and selling medals on Amazon or whatever because that's exactly what would happen in our world in the same circumstances.