How to make Justinians conquests last longer

[Emperor Casey]

The Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian already had a pretty amazing streak with his conquests and victories in all aspects of the empire but I want to ask how can we make it better?

Without wanking it make Justinians reign more successful, you can only start after he assumes the throne and beyond. And how can we have what he achieved last longer than it did OTL?

 

[cmakk1012]

Mostly by having him conquer less, to be honest. The Empire badly overextended itself during the conquests, exacerbated by the plague, which led to the nasty disasters of the 7th century.

This might sound like an oxymoron, but the other key to success would be for the Gothic War to be finished quickly. Either by Italy falling completely or a quick defeat, keeping East Rome out of the Italian quagmire would only be good for it.

 

[BEEG]

Being more decisive in the conquest of Italy. The force that Belisarus had was too small for a blitzkrieg and sending a message to the barbarians that the Romans are back in town, so the Gothic War turned into a 20 year slug fest that drained the coffers and turned relatively prosperous Italy into a economic backwater...that had to be milked to cover the costs of the invasion.

 

[Grey Wolf]

In my reading of Roman history he was pretty unique in allowing his successful brilliant general to continue leading his forces. Usually. such people end up being the victims of their emperor's insecurity, if they are lucky being retired, if not being murdered.

Maybe a way for the future would have been to create this position as something that could be aspired to, as the be all and end all, not as a potential stepping stone to the imperial throne. I don't know if you could create a Bellisarius dynasty of generals, but perhaps it could have been done by adoption

 

[Scaevola]

Mostly by having him conquer less, to be honest. The Empire badly overextended itself during the conquests, exacerbated by the plague, which led to the nasty disasters of the 7th century.

This might sound like an oxymoron, but the other key to success would be for the Gothic War to be finished quickly. Either by Italy falling completely or a quick defeat, keeping East Rome out of the Italian quagmire would only be good for it.

Came here to post this. Justinian's conquests were unsustainable megalomania.

In my reading of Roman history he was pretty unique in allowing his successful brilliant general to continue leading his forces. Usually. such people end up being the victims of their emperor's insecurity, if they are lucky being retired, if not being murdered.

Except that he didn't do that. Belisarius was recalled from the front and even imprisoned several times due to court intrigue poisoning Justinian's opinion of him. Sadly Belisarius never had enough and so never sought the throne for himself. It doesn't seem as though his personality instilled much personal loyalty.

 

[H.Flashman(VC)]

Sadly Belisarius never had enough and sought the throne for himself. It doesn't seem as though his personality instilled much personal loyalty.

Huh? Could you elaborate this please ?

 

[Basil Makedon]

Came here to post this. Justinian's conquests were unsustainable megalomania.

Except that he didn't do that. Belisarius was recalled from the front and even imprisoned several times due to court intrigue poisoning Justinian's opinion of him. Sadly Belisarius never had enough and sought the throne for himself. It doesn't seem as though his personality instilled much personal loyalty.

You may have information I don’t, but I’ve never found any sources that suggest that Belisarius tried to overthrow either Justinian, or Theodora when she was regent.

 

[Scaevola]

Huh? Could you elaborate this please ?

I admit that I'm only writing from a hazy memory of the Gothic War. There are quite a few instances where officers refuse to obey Belisarius's orders and defer instead to Narses, or John, or their own ideas (as if answering directly to Constantinople). It may be court machinations and bribery taking place behind the scenes, but it's just weird that soldiers would rather follow a eunuch than Belisarius.

You may have information I don’t, but I’ve never found any sources that suggest that Belisarius tried to overthrow either Justinian, or Theodora when she was regent.

I don't see how I imply that. Despite Belisarius's talent and loyalty, Justinian recalled him several times and even had him imprisoned. Belisarius did fall victim to Justinian's insecurities and Justinian didn't allow him to operate unhindered, contrary to what Grey Wolf thought.
Edit: Ohhh I see how my post could have been read as such. I mean that despite all that, Belisarius never got fed up, never rose up to become emperor himself, sadly.

 

[Albert.Nik]

*1 Stop the Justinian Plague. Somehow. Make the city more hygienic or have it butterflied.
*2 Have him fix the Byzantine economy and social problems first.
*3 Have the conquered people convert to Byzantines Church and join the empire.

 

[Basil Makedon]

I admit that I'm only writing from a hazy memory of the Gothic War. There are quite a few instances where officers refuse to obey Belisarius's orders and defer instead to Narses, or John, or their own ideas (as if answering directly to Constantinople). It may be court machinations and bribery taking place behind the scenes, but it's just weird that soldiers would rather follow a eunuch than Belisarius.

I don't see how I imply that. Despite Belisarius's talent and loyalty, Justinian recalled him several times and even had him imprisoned. Belisarius did fall victim to Justinian's insecurities and Justinian didn't allow him to operate unhindered, contrary to what Grey Wolf thought.
Edit: Ohhh I see how my post could have been read as such. I mean that despite all that, Belisarius never got fed up, never rose up to become emperor himself, sadly.

Oh, sorry, I missread that. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Scaevola]

*1 Stop the Justinian Plague. Somehow. Make the city more hygienic or have it butterflied.
*2 Have him fix the Byzantine economy and social problems first.
*3 Have the conquered people convert to Byzantines Church and join the empire.

1. This is a very far ranging POD. The POD would probably need to be 20 years before Justinian's reign, or even before. Unless a wall is built from the Kola peninsula to Qatar, something like the development and spread of a disease can't really be stopped.
2. How though. His conquests worsened or caused pretty much all of his economic and social problems.
3. Why would they ever do this. Holding on to their religion is an excellent way of preserving their heritage and resisting cultural and religious Romanization.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

Here are some suggestions for a more successful Justinian:

if you want to stabilize your hold on the throne and attempt the reconquest of the West you should marry someone politically more worthy than an actress. Either a member of the previous dynasty or a woman from a western senatorial family (Gens Anicia). That way you can probably avoid one of the reasons behind the enmity between Justinian and the aristocracy. However since the POD is after the wedding, the only alternative would be a divorce;

Avoid Nika;

Don’t forget to pay the African troops;

Give the Western Romans the chance to recover from the war instead of taxing them to death, especially after having captured the enemy’s treasure;

Annihilate the Goths before the rise of Totila;

Try to avoid the war against the Persians. If you can’t avoid the war then allow the Antiochians to negotiate a truce with Cosroe. If you don’t want the Antiochians to pay the ransom to Cosroe then you should send an army in the East and not your cousin Germanus with only 500 men;

Monuments and churches are nice but don’t protect the empire, fortifications do but require soldiers behind the wall to work;

You should realize that after destroying the Huns and the Gepids, the Avars would turn against you, especially if you left Illyricum undefended;

if you pursue a precise policy (peace with Persia) and after many years of war you finally achieve it, you probably should appoint as your heir someone who is willing to continue that policy, allowing the empire to focus on its Western problems, instead of provoking another war in the East.

This is what came to my mind now, but surely there is more that can be done to improve Justinian’s reign.

 

[sarahz]

I admit that I'm only writing from a hazy memory of the Gothic War. There are quite a few instances where officers refuse to obey Belisarius's orders and defer instead to Narses, or John, or their own ideas (as if answering directly to Constantinople). It may be court machinations and bribery taking place behind the scenes, but it's just weird that soldiers would rather follow a eunuch than Belisarius.

I don't see how I imply that. Despite Belisarius's talent and loyalty, Justinian recalled him several times and even had him imprisoned. Belisarius did fall victim to Justinian's insecurities and Justinian didn't allow him to operate unhindered, contrary to what Grey Wolf thought.
Edit: Ohhh I see how my post could have been read as such. I mean that despite all that, Belisarius never got fed up, never rose up to become emperor himself, sadly.

given that the source for much of the detail is Procopius one should be wary of relying on it. He was a snake. As for Narses he was quite an effective leader, so why not follow him... In order to win Justinian should have either resourced the campaign more or taken it in multiple campaigns or both, or had Wiitigas bumped off.

 

[Emperor Casey]

given that the source for much of the detail is Procopius one should be wary of relying on it. He was a snake. As for Narses he was quite an effective leader, so why not follow him... In order to win Justinian should have either resourced the campaign more or taken it in multiple campaigns or both, or had Wiitigas bumped off.

From what I have read it only seems like the reinforcements that came to aid Belesarius were looking to Narses whereas the troops that had been serving under Belasarius were loyal to him.

Also avoiding the Persian war by either destroying the goths quickly or killing their king maybe would have allowed for a less rough time as far as the economy and prestige is concerned.

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

Most of the conquests stuck until after the rise of Islam. North Africa was completely lost in 650. The Lombards didn't take Ravenna until 751 and Rome until 754. The Balaeric isles, Sardinia & Corsica, and Sicily also remained for a few decades longer than that.

 

[IanSupremo]

The last time I answered this question, me and the gents had a pretty good laugh. To be short, officially give Belisarius overall command in Italy- and personally inform all his accompanying generals to obey Belisarius. Secret talks with other commanders, NOT Narses, to report on what these orders were should also be encouraged. Pay off some Huns to make trouble in Bulgaria so you can afford to give Belisarius more forces

And, uh, have Belisarius get saved by a cat- maybe it wakes him up or something to an assassination attempt. For the plague.

 

[elkarlo]

I say go even slower. Justinian should have grabbed the Balkans up to modern Croatia, and stopped there. In NA take Tunis and stop. Take Sicily and stop. All easy to garrison and defend from ERE. Build up and develop said areas. Let a successor conquer Italy.
He did too much too fast and it couldn't be held and consolidated

 

[knightdepaix]

Avoid Nika; Annihilate the Goths before the rise of Totila;

Try to avoid the war against the Persians. If you can’t avoid the war then allow the Antiochians to negotiate a truce with Cosroe. If you don’t want the Antiochians to pay the ransom to Cosroe then you should send an army in the East and not your cousin Germanus with only 500 men;

You should realize that after destroying the Huns and the Gepids, the Avars would turn against you, especially if you left Illyricum undefended; if you pursue a precise policy (peace with Persia) and after many years of war you finally achieve it, you probably should appoint as your heir someone who is willing to continue that policy, allowing the empire to focus on its Western problems, instead of provoking another war in the East. This is what came to my mind now, but surely there is more that can be done to improve Justinian’s reign.

An ATL
Avoiding Nika before the riot means civil discontentment would more likely be tackled politically; Narses the enunch bettered Belisarius on that end. Now proven himself in service of Justinian, Narses would command the expedition into Ostrogothic Italy and finish the Ostrogothic challenge there. In OTL, Narses took four years from 551 to 554 to conclude the campaigns. If he would be in command from the beginning, he would have taken less time than Belisarius whose tactic would be more suitable in rallying local troops against a greater opponent. With Italy secured much earlier, say in the beginning of 540s. Connections between Italian Peninsula and Greek mainland and Archipelago can be re-established, including more influential Byzantine Orthodox Christian faith by the sword among commoners.

Belisarius and Mundus would be stationed in the Ostrogothic occupations in the Balkans, in modern day Croatian and Bosnia, and Serbia respectively in 540s, instead of assigning Audoin the Lombard. Eventually Belisarius beat and block Audoin and Alboin entrance to Italy. Then there is a face-off Byzantium, Gepids and Ostrogothic mercenaries against the alliance of Lombard and Avars after the death of Justinian and Belisarius. Can the finance of Italy, Greece and Balkans support against the alliance?

 

[thekingsguard]

The big one would be making sure the conquest of Italy goes much smoother, as opposed to the expensive, 20-year conflict that pretty much wrecked the peninsula.

Taking it cleanly would not only save a ton of money and manpower but allow time spent on the Gothic Wars to instead be focused elsewhere, or invested in integrating the new conquests. Plus, Italy would be very profitable for the Empire in this situation, thereby adding more resources to the Empire.

So, Italy is taken cheaply and quickly. Gaul, now firmly under control of the Franks, is likely out of reach, but pushing the Roman gains in Spain to the Pyranese is doable, as are conquests in the Balkans for more defendable borders. That's about as good as Justinian could hope for. Natural, defendable borders, peace with the Persians, and a bright, capable heir - do this, and it's bright days ahead for the East Roman Empire.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

An ATL
Avoiding Nika before the riot means civil discontentment would more likely be tackled politically; Narses the enunch bettered Belisarius on that end. Now proven himself in service of Justinian, Narses would command the expedition into Ostrogothic Italy and finish the Ostrogothic challenge there. In OTL, Narses took four years from 551 to 554 to conclude the campaigns. If he would be in command from the beginning, he would have taken less time than Belisarius whose tactic would be more suitable in rallying local troops against a greater opponent. With Italy secured much earlier, say in the beginning of 540s. Connections between Italian Peninsula and Greek mainland and Archipelago can be re-established, including more influential Byzantine Orthodox Christian faith by the sword among commoners.

Belisarius and Mundus would be stationed in the Ostrogothic occupations in the Balkans, in modern day Croatian and Bosnia, and Serbia respectively in 540s, instead of assigning Audoin the Lombard. Eventually Belisarius beat and block Audoin and Alboin entrance to Italy. Then there is a face-off Byzantium, Gepids and Ostrogothic mercenaries against the alliance of Lombard and Avars after the death of Justinian and Belisarius. Can the finance of Italy, Greece and Balkans support against the alliance?

It took Belisarius five years to take most of Italy so its hard to say who is better than who. What the Romans lacked during the reign of Totila was a unified command.

But I agree on the importance of Illyricum since it allowed effective communication between Constantinople and Ravenna. The lack of a link between the two cities is probably among the reasons that doomed the exarchate. And maybe it would have been a valuable source of manpower for the empire as well.

Definitely as the empire was financing many people including the Avars, it would have been easy to redirect these subsidies to the Gepids, especially with a wealthier Italy and no distraction in the east.