Hitler gets killed in the Beer Hall Putsch, what happens to Germany?

Suppose Hitler were killed by the Reichswehr during the Beer Hall Putsch. What would happen to the following things:
- The Weimar Republic as a whole
- Who would succeed Hindenburg?
- The remnants of the Nazi Party
- Long-term Germany-Britain/France relations
- Might Germany re-militarize anyway?
- Germany-China relations
- Jewish and other minority communities in Germany
 
German revanchism wasn't invented by the Nazis, so long term you're always eventually going to have someone somewhere stand for election on a platform of blaming someone else (Versailles) for all of Germany's troubles - and probably still around the early 30's. So if not the Nazis perhaps another right wing party, or else the Communists.
 
Most likely there is a conservative authoritarian regime (with strong military influence) in the 1930's. That--not the victory of a mass fascist party--was the usual consequence of a failure of democracy in interwar Europe. In Germany it doesn't even require an outright coup; Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution provided a framework for the "legal" imposition of authoritarianism by the President.

A Communist takeover in Germany IMO was never a serious possibility after 1919-20 (and not very likely then, either). The KPD was basically the party of the unemployed (which obviously makes it hard for them to stage mass strikes...) the majority of organized employed workers staying with the SPD even in 1932. The Communists could start street riots but were no match for the Army or the police (or probably even for the right-wing militias that would exist even without the NSDAP as we know it). Nor was an electoral road to power possible for them--even in November 1932 they got only 16.86 percent of the vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election (Nor is there any reason to think they would have done much better if the NSDAP wasn't around; the big NSDAP electoral gains from 1928 to 1932 were more from former supporters of the conservative and liberal parties than from people likely to support the Communists.)
 
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Depends by the.. 30's Germany is recovering.. Its been a Very hard 10 years. But by Hindenburgs death the republic was mostly sound.

Does this mean that their wasn't some people wanting former borders? Oh sure

But most would be fine with getting the danizg issue settled. Germany was on decent terms with Poland.. Granted not the best, but by far not the worse.

So no hitler, the right isn't as extreme or at least that part of the platform doesn't get such a vocal voice.

Von pappen and others get a fair shake.

Comunists would be the public enemy

I would think less racial hatred.

A more stable Germany is good for Europe.

So let's say that by the 40s Stalin decides to roll the dice and goes after Poland or Poland starts something.. What ever strikes the match.. They go at it. Germany comes out the winner by protecting Poland along with the west. Soviets are contained or dismantled. Ww2 is basically a European affair against the soviets and communism

Possible return of the monarchy (figure heads) for Germany.

Poland and Germany draw closer... Austria is absorbed peacefully into Germany.

Italy doesn't go oh Roman empire 4.0

Franco could be moderated

Japan might not go man to man against the USA if Europe isn't in chaos
 
An authoritarian military backed half-fascist regime.

I think I have said this quite a few times in other threads, so some of this will be old hat for some of you, but the Nazis were only one of three dozen fascist parties running around Germany and screeching they had all the answers if only someone would hang the Jews, Communists, bankers and take back what France "stole." At the meeting where Goering first met Hitler, 19 (or possible 23) fascist parties were scheduled to speak at a park, and Hitler balked at sharing a stage with the others and called everyone on the same bill as him "safe bourgeois" and denounced them, catching Goering's ear and eye. The Nazis were not unique, they just got "lucky" and had some factors going for them, over the others. Including the decision not to join the other smaller fascist parties into an anti-Socialist coalition, not born out of brilliance, but out of pure mule-stuborrness by Hitler to share. From the ashes of that coalition, more than a few came over to the Nazi party.

With Hitler dead, the Party would have likely shifted to the Strassers, and their more beefsteak National Socialism.

The Weimar Republic would have still been screwed. Democracy to most of us has positive connotations because we associate it with prosperity and triumph. In United States, we were born of democracy. In Germany, democracy came from a humiliating defeat and destruction of a 500 year royal House. Social Democrats were associated with the utter defilement of Germany, in the eyes of more than a few men on the street. Someone promising the good old days that were neither good nor that old would have appealed. The same anti-democratic shit which the Communists were peddling were then peddled by the Nazis and the same large mass of people in the end, largely, voted for both. For some fascist party, backed by barons and bayonets, to take down the republic would have been quite easy. Or they could have left it in place, but made it emasculated.

Hindenburg would have been replaced by von Papen, then he would have shit the bed, because he's not the guy - he's the guy who wants to be the guy, but is actually the person helping the guy. After that, some figure would have been dusted off and presented for the masses.

Relations with France would have hinged on whether the desire for the lost provinces would have overridden bowel-shaking fear of the Bolsheviks in the East. The Soviet Union is still there. And Stalin is still Stalin. So something has to give in Eastern Europe. Poland and the Baltics look good to the Red Tsar.

As for the Jews, hopefully the worst can be avoided, but some sort of discrimination would have been done and exclusion from public life. The Nazi rhetoric did not grow in a lab, it grew in the wild, aided and abetted by the popular moods. As early as 1919, as Goebbels is struggling to figure out if he wants to be a left-wing wing-nut or a right wing one, he is already philosophizing about the Jewish Question with remarkable conclusions that he not once feels the need to explain or elaborate upon. So, his musings on whether he can get over the revulsion he feels in one of his girlfriends being half-Jewish a sign of a trouble soul, or whether he must commit his will to overcome this weakness. Alfred Rosenberg might have dropped into Bavaria by way of Berlin and Estonia, but he found ample soil to support his views. But the 1920s, the "Jewish Question" was much discussed by the lunatic fascist fringe. Some sort of discrimination would have been likely.
 
Yes, the Weimar Republic had it's flaws and yes, there were many fascist groups around in Germany.

But stating that Germany would have gone fascist even without Hitle is non-explicable historical determinism. Hitler managed to unite the whole german right into the NSDAP. I don't think that it's clear that without him some other person would be able to unite all of them.

Without Hitler, the NSDAP would have probably would have moved to the "left" and adopt Strasserism. They almost did that in 1926 even with Hitler OTL and I think that the coalition Strasser-Strasser-Goebbels would have managed to take over the party.

But this would have meant that the more conservative wing of the party would probably have left and joined some other right wing group. And it would also have meant that a "anti-capitalist" NSDAP would never been accepted by the prussian-conservative Kamarilla around Hindenburg. And without the NSDAP the german right wouldn't have been able to install a dictatorship without starting a civil war (and they knew that, see "Planspiel Ott").
 
Represenitive government did have a tradition in Germany. More republic than democratic, but the inclination to authoritarianism is overstated by many.

Second; the ToV was already crumbling. The economic aspects had twice been renegotiated, in 1924 & 1929. Had the NSDAP not abrogated the treaty entirely other governments would have very likely renegotiated the payments yet against. On the military side Britain negotiated a new naval treaty. The structure was disentigrating & probably would have existed only in a few residual bit by 1945. Other than French obstinacy & Polish fears, there were to many incentives to let the thing fall apart. It was hindrance to the economic recovery of Europe in general & a obstacle to rationalization of the politics and economics of Europe.

Lacking a charismatic leader, & possibly split between left & right member the NSDAP will remain a fringe party. That leaves the government open to the centrists coalitions of the previous decade.
 
*AHEM*
Strasserism

I doubt very much that an NSDAP led by Strasser could come to power, and not just because he wasn't Hitler's equal as an orator. I don't think he even had the toughness to hold the party together. (One sign of this lack of toughness is the way he often capitulated to Hitler on points of disagreement and, even when he broke with Hitler, pretty much gave up on politics altogether.) Moreover, even assuming (which I think very unlikely) the NSDAP under him is as strong as it was under Hitler in 1932, his willingness to have the NSDAP take a minority role in a non-Nazi led government--as opposed to Hitler's demand for "Chancellor or nothing"--would probably mean giving up the window of opportunity for the NSDAP to seize total power. Hitler's own coming to power was a very close thing (in late 1932 the NSDAP seemed to have been past its peak), and it is hard for me to see any other NSDAP leader accomplishing it.

I think it's much more likely that the NSDAP will splinter after Hitler's death. Each would-be Fuhrer will claim to represent Hitler's ideas, and there will be no Hitler around with the authority to adjudicate among them.
 
Japan might not go man to man against the USA if Europe isn't in chaos

I'll disagree respectfully but strenuously: by the time Pearl Harbor happened IOTL, the US had been drawing up and revising plans for a war against Japan for 44 years (that's right: 1897, before the US acquired either the Philippines or Hawaii). Both sides knew that at some point there would be a day of reckoning for supremacy in the Pacific: it was largely a matter of time. No distraction in the form of Nazi Germany would merely have postponed the inevitable--but it would have made the inevitable a lot more protracted and bloody, given that the end game would likely have been a full invasion of the home islands (since I suspect nuclear weapons would not have been developed, since the key theoreticians, researchers, etc. would not have fled Germany in particular / Europe in general).
 
I'll disagree respectfully but strenuously: by the time Pearl Harbor happened IOTL, the US had been drawing up and revising plans for a war against Japan for 44 years (that's right: 1897, before the US acquired either the Philippines or Hawaii). Both sides knew that at some point there would be a day of reckoning for supremacy in the Pacific: it was largely a matter of time. No distraction in the form of Nazi Germany would merely have postponed the inevitable--but it would have made the inevitable a lot more protracted and bloody, given that the end game would likely have been a full invasion of the home islands (since I suspect nuclear weapons would not have been developed, since the key theoreticians, researchers, etc. would not have fled Germany in particular / Europe in general).

I wont disagree with that, however If Japan is tied down in a quagmire in China, The UK and France, the dutch and others are not locked down in Europe it may delay and or limit the scope of any such conflict.


Let say for example the following:

Hitler dies...
Germany moves forward - begins to rearm some during the 30's nothing to crazy... Austria actually merges with a more democratic Germany. Germany gives up he idea of Alsac to appease the French and British ..

Germany and Poland find some agreement that works on the Danizg issue . god knows what, but lets say they do and both sides are happy and working against the new rising foe of the USSR.

The Baltics lean into the German-polish sphere for some form of protection.

Germany actually gets its mittle Europa economic zone to a large degree, granted its not soley a german grand empire dream.. but an economic block none the less. So no war in Europe ( at least not one started by Germany )

This leaves The colonial Powers to continue doing their thing around the world and that would also make Japanese ambitions on a giant co prosperity zone a bit more difficult to realize with the French, Dutch, and British all happily not distracted. I would even expect that the Chinese civil war would be over much quicker.
 
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