An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[ImperatorAlexander]

The wait for the next update is going to be even harder than usual! We all know what’s going to happen but I want all the details of the utter massacre of the Allied Army.

Besides, if the Romans really had that kind of numbers available, they’d send a force to besiege Skoupoi to block their retreat and while they know Vidin has fallen and Belgrade itself is besieged, there are no reports from the Hungarian garrison at Skoupoi indicating they are threatened.

Timing is so horrible for the Allies, if they had maybe an extra week they’d know how screwed they are.
If any of them escape Thessaloniki, they’re going to run into 60,000+ Roman troops (I’m assuming Belgrade and Skoupoi will immediately surrender once the news reaches them).

It’ll be difficult but the Romans should aim to capture as many nobles and valuable hostages as possible. Aside from making a fortune on the ransoms, D3 can selectively trickle them back to maximise the ensuing mayhem.

 

[Antony444]

Well...it's quite obvious there will be absolutely nothing positive to save propaganda-wise for the Holy Roman Empire.
One of the rare things they could say until this last chapter was the fact their homeland itself had avoided the war devastation...and now they had Munich almost stormed (which is not going to improve the finances I suspect) and the army which did this camping in Salzburg. Plus to prevent a lot of the damage they had to call the Hungarians. Fun times.

This war I think will have seeded a lot of anger and loathing between the Greeks and the Germans while before it had been relatively limited. Nice job Theodor.
As for the 140 Hungarian nobles who have declared they will fight to the end before surrendering to the Greeks, I think there are going soon to be some tens of thousands troops willing to arrange a fiery end for these men.

The fact the army besieging Thessaloniki doesn't know the door is already shut behind them is half-comical half-tragedy. Their judgement that - save one noble - the 200 000 men simply can't be there and that they have nothing to fear when they're already close to big supply difficulties is even more hilarious. And I suppose Vauban and all the artillery train already expended plenty of gunpowder to make the damages they did to Thelassoniki walls.

Yeah, with a disaster like this, the Wittelsbachs are going to be the scapegoats for this monumental failure. I don't know if there's going to be civil war after this, but Theodor has simply broken his family and destroyed all the legitimacy they had managed to gather in the last century. Quite impressive a feat, and I suppose some epithet like 'Theodore the Idiot' is soon going to be applied.
He had some gains to negotiate at the end of the previous campaign season, and instead decided to throw it away on a scheme, which at best could be described as insanity.
I mean, let's assume he takes Thelassoniki (which would certainly have been quite nasty and made Skoupoi look like a picnic). What then? Constantinople would not have revolted, a lot of nobles engaged on treason are already dead. The Germans have no naval presence in the Aegean. They would have been encircled by reinforcements constantly growing from Anatolia, all the while taking thousands of dead from skirmishes and raids.
They would have been forced to retreat, lose Skoupoi, abandon Belgrade and Serbia, or try to find a way to build another army. Which they can't do because their finances were already at their breaking point.
So yeah, Theodor is going to get everything he deserves and more, becoming the failure every sovereign after him will be warned to not emulate...

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

The wait for the next update is going to be even harder than usual! We all know what’s going to happen but I want all the details of the utter massacre of the Allied Army.

Timing is so horrible for the Allies, if they had maybe an extra week they’d know how screwed they are.
If any of them escape Thessaloniki, they’re going to run into 60,000+ Roman troops (I’m assuming Belgrade and Skoupoi will immediately surrender once the news reaches them).

It’ll be difficult but the Romans should aim to capture as many nobles and valuable hostages as possible. Aside from making a fortune on the ransoms, D3 can selectively trickle them back to maximise the ensuing mayhem.

There is a little bit of me that really wants to see this lead to a mass-surrender rather than slaughter, for one major reason.

That's a lot of Germans to settle in Sideropolis-in-the-East, or Munich-in-the-East just to add spite to the victory. Give the captured a home, where they can freely live, but also effectively sign them up to be troops in the next war against the Persians.

I think more likely the nobles will be ransomed, and maybe the offer of "Join us as free Romans, or die as Bavarians" will create a hefty number of new recruits/settlers to scatter throughout Anatolia/Egypt, which might undo some of the damage done to capture them in the first place.

 

[catconqueror]

Considering how easy the romans run amok in Bavaria and Austria(who need Hungarians to hold) , which is among the most important provinces in HRE, the HRE has really really run out of men have they?

Is rhineland at the same condition? Does some rhinelander stays to watch the Triunes?

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Theodor is going to be fucking crucified in the historiography of this war for a very long time. Should've listened to Bodislaw Griffin, ol' Theo...

It makes complete sense that one of the only nobles in the HRE who understands how sea power works is a guy from Pomerania. Poor guy must feel like Cassandra.

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

I can only imagine what is going on in the court of Ibrahim right now. The fanatics are beside themselves in joy, while the merchants and military are probably gobsmacked by how treed they are. It really is like someone put a brake onto the sword of Damocles just before it hits the jugular. There have to be a few in the Peacock Court who see the Triunes influence as what put them in that situation, as poisoned honey as well. Sure they have something of a fleet now, but no fleet is better than a mediocre one, especially when your mortal enemy has proper fleets cruising through the same oceans, with better officers and sailors. In fact writing about it, I'm willing to bet the fanatics are all who are keeping Ibrahim on the throne. In their eyes they won, he returned Damascus and Jerusalem back to their hands, who cares about some dusty villages full of Kurds and hillsmen? In their minds, they have God's favour again. It would also whip the more devout into a ghazi-mindset when the war between the two picks back up again. Which sickeningly, will work in the Rhomans post-war plan for the region. I could see Mosul annexed with Deir-ez-Zor, and all else south along the rivers pillaged, burnt, and salted. With the muslim populous in interior Syria feeling emboldened again, so many atrocities are going to come up. I feel like TTL modern Syria will be as Rhoman as Anatolia, only without the Rhomanization, just ugly terror, and settlers, to get there.

"Rhoman Luck" has become a bit of a trope, but this war is not one they will lose, and Ody is going full Timur. I can picture it now, sitting on his stead overlooking his army preparing for the assault on Baghdad, mindlessly circling his palm on the pommel of one of Timur's sword for a moment. Timur appears beside him on his own pale horse and whispers, "Be the son I always deserved. Dew it".

 

[Evilprodigy]

I can only imagine what is going on in the court of Ibrahim right now. The fanatics are beside themselves in joy, while the merchants and military are probably gobsmacked by how treed they are. It really is like someone put a brake onto the sword of Damocles just before it hits the jugular. There have to be a few in the Peacock Court who see the Triunes influence as what put them in that situation, as poisoned honey as well. Sure they have something of a fleet now, but no fleet is better than a mediocre one, especially when your mortal enemy has proper fleets cruising through the same oceans, with better officers and sailors. In fact writing about it, I'm willing to bet the fanatics are all who are keeping Ibrahim on the throne. In their eyes they won, he returned Damascus and Jerusalem back to their hands, who cares about some dusty villages full of Kurds and hillsmen? In their minds, they have God's favour again. It would also whip the more devout into a ghazi-mindset when the war between the two picks back up again. Which sickeningly, will work in the Rhomans post-war plan for the region. I could see Mosul annexed with Deir-ez-Zor, and all else south along the rivers pillaged, burnt, and salted. With the muslim populous in interior Syria feeling emboldened again, so many atrocities are going to come up. I feel like TTL modern Syria will be as Rhoman as Anatolia, only without the Rhomanization, just ugly terror, and settlers, to get there.

"Rhoman Luck" has become a bit of a trope, but this war is not one they will lose, and Ody is going full Timur. I can picture it now, sitting on his stead overlooking his army preparing for the assault on Baghdad, mindlessly circling his palm on the pommel of one of Timur's sword for a moment. Timur appears beside him on his own pale horse and whispers, "Be the son I always deserved. Dew it".

Interesting you bring up the Ghazi mindset. This IS the Ottoman Empire we're talking about, even if it is an ATL one, the Ghazi mindset is a powerful cultural icon of the Ottoman state and a core institution of its border defence, expansion, and cultural legacy. Maybe not expansion as much as OTL, with the countless Ghazi micro-states along border regions raiding and conquering to spread Islam into Western Anatolia and the Balkans, but it is still an important part of Ottoman heritage ITTL. I'm quite glad B444 has kept that aspect of the Ottoman national identity rather than focus on the oft-repeated ad nauseam, though no less real, religious tolerance within the state. Though I figure in an Ottoman Empire that doesn't have millions of Christians, Jews, and other religious minorities that aspect will be much less powerful.

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

Interesting you bring up the Ghazi mindset. This IS the Ottoman Empire we're talking about, even if it is an ATL one, the Ghazi mindset is a powerful cultural icon of the Ottoman state and a core institution of its border defence, expansion, and cultural legacy. Maybe not expansion as much as OTL, with the countless Ghazi micro-states along border regions raiding and conquering to spread Islam into Western Anatolia and the Balkans, but it is still an important part of Ottoman heritage ITTL. I'm quite glad B444 has kept that aspect of the Ottoman national identity rather than focus on the oft-repeated ad nauseam, though no less real, religious tolerance within the state. Though I figure in an Ottoman Empire that doesn't have millions of Christians, Jews, and other religious minorities that aspect will be much less powerful.

If anything the Ghazi aspect of Ottoman culture could be more prevalent with it's active border with India as well as Rhome. There was a period where a rise in sermons of "Islam Under Siege"(without their own Steven Seagal until Iskander), that had to of had a hardening effect to that mindset. I wonder what the more influential strati of Turk/Persian thinks of their relations with the Triple Monarchy, are they a friend to Islam, or means to an end? I would hope for their survival, the main movers and shakers are pragmatic enough to see the greed and use it for their own benefit. I keep mentioning the Triunes because they are an octopus of plots, the Accords existence says a lot of the tom foolery the Triunes are capable of. When it kicks off, I bet surprisingly that Triune ships in the Indian ocean will be more like the Rhomans in Caribbean, more privateer in composition. I hope the Ottomans can get the upper hand in their dealings, maybe when Ody is through placing the Rhome friendly prince on the Peacock Throne, and a comeuppance is finally given to the Triunes. Even just a reminder the universe doesn't revolve around the Channel.

 

[Aristomenes]

I am a bit surprised that there have been no revolts yet against Wittelsbachs in the HRE. Perhaps after the destruction of the Allied army in Thessaloniki we will have interesting developments.
I am glad Elisabeth was not killed, she would be a good leader for partly repairing the damages brought to the Wittelsbachs by the foolish actions of her brother.
By occupying Salzburg the Romans have all the salt they need to salt some earth in the HRE . I wonder though, if the temporary Roman occupation of Salzburg will butterfly away the birth of Mr Mozart...

 

[Imperial Inkstand-filler]

Somebody mentioned a while back that they could see the Rhomans developing an alt-"Stabbed-in-the-back" narrative regarding the relationship between the Imperial family, the army, and the press, after the end of the war, but I wonder if the Germans may come away with an alt-"Lost Cause" narrative. All the pieces are there, it would seem: an allied command staff to glorify as examples of central european/crusader/Holy Roman chivalry and honor (Blutcher seems an honorable man, Casimir can be exemplified as the crusader-king defending christendom, Vauban as the ingenious artillery man, etc.), a Rhoman command staff to vilify as dishonorable for one reason or another (Andreas d'Este as an alt-Sherman is clear, and given the less-than-positive church position on suicide for many years, the idea of Rhoman commanders as suicide bombers may gain traction), a "good" reason for war (defending the honor of the unjustly-treated Elizabeth) to promote instead of the more accurate, "worse" reason (Theodor's ambition), an argument that battlefield losses were "inevitable" due to the administrative and logistical superiority of the Rhomans compared to their "inferior" fighting men, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if Blutcher took on a mythos in Germany not unlike Lee in the postbellum south, especially if the period after the war is characterized by further troubles for the Germans.

 

[JSC]

Okay so I think I've read through this update 4 times now and I'm pretty sure there's still stuff I'm missing but here goes:

1) With Mastino we see the downside of still relying on noble birth to decide who gets to be a commander. Would the same thing happen to the HRE, Triunes, or Spain? Perhaps not to the same extent but I could definitely see a French noble parking his army around his personal estates and allowing raiders to go elsewhere. One of those hidden strengths of Rome's officer corp that is underappreciated

2) This has been a damn destructive raid. By my count 3 major population centres; Bad Tolz, Landshut, Salzburg; have been totally sacked/destroyed. I include Salzburg because I don't see the Romans leaving it standing when they depart in the spring. In addition Munich has been partially sacked and Passau has been raided. This is in addition to the multiple towns and villages that have been razed/stripped of value.

3) That line about acknowledging the war crimes but not apologizing leads me to several conclusions. First is that Rome is still a first rate power in Europe in the modern day able to ignore protests from other nations. Second is that Rome still doesn't get along with at a minimum Germany and possibly Catholic Europe in general. It would be one thing to say it was just the way war was and another to apologize for it, but to say "yep we did war crimes what are you gonna do" lends itself to a Rome that even into the modern day still sees non-orthodox Europe as "the other" and not fully their equal.

4) I really enjoyed the bit about the peace treaty. I think we hashed it out through the chats but it adds a layer of realism to the story. Yes the HRE has heard what is going on but as a land power they have grossly underestimated the sea lift capacity. They are also victims of not having anyone versed in Near Eastern geography to miss what is abundantly clear. I don't doubt if Theodore received news of the peace treaty in Munich or even Budapest there would have been SOMEONE able to show him the strategic vice the Romans now have the Ottomans. Unfortunately he's in an army camp where no one can put all the pieces together.

5) Unless I am mistaken another line of the prophecy has come true. The walls of the white palace are indeed hearing cannon fire. Its just that its 500 Roman cannons unleashing the largest barrage in history up to that point. The HRE and Triunes may want to speak to Nostradamus about being a bit more specific on his prophecies; maybe drop a couple names or GPS coordinates.

 

[HanEmpire]

Did D3 really hear cannon fire from Constantinople? Or is he visiting Thessaloniki right now?

EDIT: He's in Constantinople. So the prophecy might apply to the thunder instead.

 

[Komnenos002]

Henri the Spider could lose Vauban and his entire contingent and still come out ahead. The amount of damage wreaked on his rivals is just astonishing at this point.

I sort of want the Triune's roll into Lotharingia to some degree now - not a total obliteration or move to the Rhine - but certainly a further humbling of the HRE. Theodor has been so stupendously lucky, in such an unearned way, over such a stupid endeavour, that he utterly deserves to have the HRE suffer as much as possible. They've been rolling 6's for far too long by this point.

In practical terms as well, an HRE this strained as well is going to struggle to contain a Triune invasion.

 

[chrnno]

Henri the Spider could lose Vauban and his entire contingent and still come out ahead. The amount of damage wreaked on his rivals is just astonishing at this point.

I sort of want the Triune's roll into Lotharingia to some degree now - not a total obliteration or move to the Rhine - but certainly a further humbling of the HRE. Theodor has been so stupendously lucky, in such an unearned way, over such a stupid endeavour, that he utterly deserves to have the HRE suffer as much as possible. They've been rolling 6's for far too long by this point.

In practical terms as well, an HRE this strained as well is going to struggle to contain a Triune invasion.

The only saving grace for the HRE is that Lothanrigia while no match for the Triunes is still a significant power, because after Theodor's magnificent stupidity it is the only thing actually standing on the way of the Triunes walking all they way to Bohemia(if their troops are recalled in time) or even to Poland. Sure they cannot possibly hold it, though Theodor did his best otherwise, but if they commit to it they might very well neuter the HRE as a threat for generations if not shatter it entirely.

Considering that despite how much of a dysfunctional mess it was in OTL it took a fully unified France going full steam ahead under Napoleon to do so it really says something about how much of a disaster Theodor was. But hey he has secured his role in the history books; might be as worst ruler in the history of worst rulers but chances are of the rulers of the century, plus likely the previous and next ones, he is the one best remembered by popular culture.

 

[Komnenos002]

The only saving grace for the HRE is that Lothanrigia while no match for the Triunes is still a significant power, because after Theodor's magnificent stupidity it is the only thing actually standing on the way of the Triunes walking all they way to Bohemia(if their troops are recalled in time) or even to Poland. Sure they cannot possibly hold it, though Theodor did his best otherwise, but if they commit to it they might very well neuter the HRE as a threat for generations if not shatter it entirely.

Considering that despite how much of a dysfunctional mess it was in OTL it took a fully unified France going full steam ahead under Napoleon to do so it really says something about how much of a disaster Theodor was. But hey he has secured his role in the history books; might be as worst ruler in the history of worst rulers but chances are of the rulers of the century, plus likely the previous and next ones, he is the one best remembered by popular culture.

Indeed, and how well Lotharingia does solo is something that partly comes down to Basileus444's take on these alt-Dutch.

In OTL, the Dutch were able to largely fend off foreign incursions during their Golden Age. As other nations caught up and the discrepancy in weight told against them, Dutch martial success slowly collapsed until powers were surprised at how hollow they were during the War of Austrian Succession.

I don't think we're quite at that level, but I'm also doubtful that Lotharingia can truly repel any Triune invasion.

Perhaps the Alsace-Lorraine region will fall to Henri and he'll be denied the real prize of the Lowlands? That seems reasonable to me - the HRE isn't in a position to fully rebuff a Triune invasion, but Lotharingia on its own is large enough to avert a total collapse of the imperial frontier to King's Landing. Particularly if the Accord again intervenes to moderate any bloodthirstiness in victory.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Indeed, and how well Lotharingia does solo is something that partly comes down to Basileus444's take on these alt-Dutch.

In OTL, the Dutch were able to largely fend off foreign incursions during their Golden Age. As other nations caught up and the discrepancy in weight told against them, Dutch martial success slowly collapsed until powers were surprised at how hollow they were during the War of Austrian Succession.

I don't think we're quite at that level, but I'm also doubtful that Lotharingia can truly repel any Triune invasion.

Perhaps the Alsace-Lorraine region will fall to Henri and he'll be denied the real prize of the Lowlands? That seems reasonable to me - the HRE isn't in a position to fully rebuff a Triune invasion, but Lotharingia on its own is large enough to avert a total collapse of the imperial frontier to King's Landing. Particularly if the Accord again intervenes to moderate any bloodthirstiness in victory.

There's also the fact that even if Lotharingia has the OTL Dutch martial abilities on land, that only really helps them with defending the core Low Countries. Half of Lotharingia is Rhineland territory, and they're very liable to lose that when the Triunes come sweeping in.

 

[Tirion]

"It begins"

"No... Now it ends."

 

[floppy_seal99]

"It begins"

"No... Now it ends."

“We’re in the Endgame now.”

“I am inevitable.”

“”And I. Am. Demetrios.”

 

[Curtain Jerker]

“We’re in the Endgame now.”

“I am inevitable.”

“”And I. Am. Demetrios.”

Before this battle is over Theodor will pray he only loses half his army.

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

Before this battle is over Theodor will pray he only loses half his army.

As terrible as it seems, I hope no Latin will escape Macedon. Either by the sword or indentured servitude while being settled. Make your enemies, your friends lol