The closest example would be Hiei and Kirishima @ Guadalcanal
So that's a pretty decent answer - although a modernised Hood might have been better protected
9.2" HMS Belfast
- Thread starter YYJ
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The closest example would be Hiei and Kirishima @ Guadalcanal
So that's a pretty decent answer - although a modernised Hood might have been better protected
I don't have the cost but powered systems aren't always better. As a rule warships tended to have plenty of manpower around compared to civilian ships so could afford to run things by hand.
The example I always heard was that the Des Moines auto loaders were heavier than the crew and berths that they replaced.
Now the need to be fast enough to track aircraft changes the equation a bit. But for the first half of the century that isn't an issue.
Automatic systems are almost always better because they allow you to commit more of your crew to damage control. WWII era ships had gun crews (up to half of the total crew) who were tied up and more manpower intensive machinery. Modern warship crew requirements should be driven by maintenance and damage control requirements rather than weapons and engineering because modern systems don't require much crew. A destroyer with 300 crewmen can usually be fought with as few as 100, split between weapons, navigation, and engineering, leaving all the maintenance people free to do damage control. Just because you have people on the ship doesn't mean you want to stick them in a room somewhere.
That's probably true, but the point of Des Moines's automatics was to get 8" guns firing as fast as the Cleveland's 6" guns, which it certainly accomplished. The firing cycle was a third that of the Baltimores, and would have been entirely impossible with manually served guns. Also, unlike Worcester and Tiger and their high-angle DP main batteries, Des Moines's mounts and loaders were actually reliable.
Doesn't that very much depend on if you are crew or resource (money/production) limited as a navy? (and how far from resupply you intend to fight)
If we are talking about one v one ship the more automated US systems are almost certainly better, its just if with the huge availability of WWII conscripts (who will mostly be used/lost as infantry in numbers that make ship crew near irrelevant) its not better to have cheaper ships if that means more of them?
If you don't have those crew on board any more because of automation, then they can't be assigned to damage control. And if you have both automation and crew, then it sounds like an inefficient use of resources or volume or displacement.
That's probably a poor comparison, the Kongos were very extensively rebuilt but certainly shouldn't have been bumped up to "fast battleship" standard, their deck armour may have been better but their belt was quite thin, Hiei was stuck at 8" the belt.
Hood meanwhile has a 12 inch belt, inclined to increase the thickness. Had she been rebuilt, a weakness that probably causes her demise, her upper 7" and 5" stakes would be reorganised into a uniform 12" belt, with the upper 5" strake basically removed entirely to give way for an armoured deck of roughly 4.5 to 5 inches which met the top of the new uniform 12" belt. Considering the American ww2 BBs all had 12" belts, and the likes of NC had a 5.5 deck, Hood would be a very effective unit, far more so than the Kongos could've been. That's not to say she could beat Bismarck alone in a slugging match or something, though I've already discussed how the Germans "fighting ship" capability is extremely fragile with their delicate radar, exposed FC, fragile turret electronics and the decision to out the electronics above the armoured deck, which altogether affected both Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in Seperate engagem
Hell, look at Renown, she was a very useful asset to the Royal Navy during the war.
Wouldn't it be a case of these crew would be stuck in the turret firing at the enemy regardless of what's going on with the rest of the ship, there's plenty more crew to do damage control.
Obviously if the turret malfunctions or gets damaged they'll probably be working to fix it. However if the turret is penetrated the crew will probably be killed, so with automation, although there would likely be a few crew to monitor the system, there would nonetheless be more space opened up for damage control crew.
Extra crew for damage control is one of the reasons against automation that I have heard. For example it is one of the arguments against the highly automated modern day USN Littoral Ships. YMMV. But it shows the complexity of the situation that the same point can be argued in both directions.
Yes but a comparison of who actually sold cruisers commercially in the inter-war might give you a good idea of the best deals?
I think only Italy and GB sold ships commercially?
The LCS crew is so small because it doesn't carry personnel with maintenance roles. The crew onboard is able to sail and fight the ship in combat but not much more. The CONOPS is to be at sea for a week or so at a time and then go back to Singapore and have Fat Leonard's people do all the maintenance tasks that pile up over the week.
In the case of the LCS I agree with you. Too much old navy thinking in a lot of people.
The idea with a large crew is that they wouldn't be firing away in a turret in a serious DC situation. Even assuming that the turret is still working they could be pulled out if needed and sent to do DC. Triage.
The main arguments for automation I have heard are reducing crew sizes for cost purposes, or to perform a task humans can't.
I have a Springsharp file for Belfast now. It's the best I could do given the available resources. Power is locked at 82,500 shp, so the calculated speed is a bit low. Range was adjusted to get the bunker to 1,950 tons rather than other sources that gave 6,000 or 8,500 nm range at 13 knots. Standard displacement is about 200 tons too high, full load displacement is about 600 tons too light. The armor is probably too heavy and the guns too light.
Switching to twin 9.2" mounts increases the weight of the armament by 50%, to 900 tons. Those turrets on the Belfast hull would have resulted in a Springsharp composite strength coefficient of 0.81, so I had to increase the size of the hull from 614 x 64 ft to 660 x 68 ft. I also increased the powerplant to 100,000 shp and bunkerage by 100 tons. Block coefficient was slightly increased to give extra weight, but the power increase brings speed up from 31.2 to 31.8 knots so the actual speed might exceed 33 knots. The main belts had to be stretched slightly to fit the increased size of the machinery so that added more weight.
I made a third Springsharp design using the 8"/50 BL Mark VIII that the County-class heavy cruisers carried, but with the same turret armor as Belfast and Edinburgh. Armament weight has increased only slightly but composite strength has decreased to 0.92. To get the weight in line, I simulated the addition of a hull plug by increasing the length and block coefficient, so this ship is about 1,000 tons heavier than Belfast. The main belts also had to be stretched but not as much as on the Minotaur above. Power was also increased to 90,000 shp to compensate for the increased weight.
HMS Belfast, Royal Navy light cruiser laid down 1936
Displacement:
10,282 t light; 10,772 t standard; 11,856 t normal; 12,724 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(622.04 ft / 614.00 ft) x 64.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.18 ft)
(189.60 m / 187.15 m) x 19.51 m x (6.71 / 7.07 m)
Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns - 111.99lbs / 50.80kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
4 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.01lbs / 15.88kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 2.01lbs / 0.91kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,797 lbs / 815 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m torpedoes - 1.426 t each, 8.556 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 155.00 ft / 47.24 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
4.00 ft / 1.22 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 399.10 ft / 121.65 m 20.44 ft / 6.23 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.00 ft / 13.72 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 82,500 shp / 61,545 Kw = 31.14 kts
Range 13,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,952 tons
Complement:
567 - 738
Cost:
£4.474 million / $17.898 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 433 tons, 3.7 %
- Guns: 416 tons, 3.5 %
- Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,011 tons, 25.4 %
- Belts: 1,249 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 151 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 237 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,306 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Towers: 67 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,315 tons, 19.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,123 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,574 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 3.4 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,848 lbs / 7,642 Kg = 156.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.78 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.8 %
Waterplane Area: 25,716 Square feet or 2,389 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 516 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Displacement:
10,282 t light; 10,772 t standard; 11,856 t normal; 12,724 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(622.04 ft / 614.00 ft) x 64.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.18 ft)
(189.60 m / 187.15 m) x 19.51 m x (6.71 / 7.07 m)
Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns - 111.99lbs / 50.80kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
4 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.01lbs / 15.88kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 2.01lbs / 0.91kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,797 lbs / 815 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m torpedoes - 1.426 t each, 8.556 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 155.00 ft / 47.24 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
4.00 ft / 1.22 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 399.10 ft / 121.65 m 20.44 ft / 6.23 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.00 ft / 13.72 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 82,500 shp / 61,545 Kw = 31.14 kts
Range 13,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,952 tons
Complement:
567 - 738
Cost:
£4.474 million / $17.898 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 433 tons, 3.7 %
- Guns: 416 tons, 3.5 %
- Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,011 tons, 25.4 %
- Belts: 1,249 tons, 10.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 151 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 237 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,306 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Towers: 67 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,315 tons, 19.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,123 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,574 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 3.4 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,848 lbs / 7,642 Kg = 156.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.78 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.8 %
Waterplane Area: 25,716 Square feet or 2,389 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 516 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Switching to twin 9.2" mounts increases the weight of the armament by 50%, to 900 tons. Those turrets on the Belfast hull would have resulted in a Springsharp composite strength coefficient of 0.81, so I had to increase the size of the hull from 614 x 64 ft to 660 x 68 ft. I also increased the powerplant to 100,000 shp and bunkerage by 100 tons. Block coefficient was slightly increased to give extra weight, but the power increase brings speed up from 31.2 to 31.8 knots so the actual speed might exceed 33 knots. The main belts had to be stretched slightly to fit the increased size of the machinery so that added more weight.
HMS Minotaur, Royal Navy armoured cruiser laid down 1936
Displacement:
12,817 t light; 13,380 t standard; 14,528 t normal; 15,447 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(668.04 ft / 660.00 ft) x 68.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.06 ft)
(203.62 m / 201.17 m) x 20.73 m x (6.71 / 7.03 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm 50.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.01lbs / 15.88kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 2.01lbs / 0.91kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,493 lbs / 1,584 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m torpedoes - 1.426 t each, 8.556 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 80.00 ft / 24.38 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 133 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 429.00 ft / 130.76 m 19.74 ft / 6.02 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.00 ft / 13.72 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 100,000 shp / 74,600 Kw = 31.77 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,067 tons
Complement:
661 - 860
Cost:
£6.353 million / $25.412 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 902 tons, 6.2 %
- Guns: 885 tons, 6.1 %
- Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,537 tons, 24.3 %
- Belts: 1,468 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 157 tons, 1.1 %
- Armament: 295 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,541 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Towers: 77 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,806 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,171 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,712 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.8 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,225 lbs / 8,267 Kg = 46.8 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.515 / 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 132.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.0 %
Waterplane Area: 30,317 Square feet or 2,816 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 589 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Displacement:
12,817 t light; 13,380 t standard; 14,528 t normal; 15,447 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(668.04 ft / 660.00 ft) x 68.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.06 ft)
(203.62 m / 201.17 m) x 20.73 m x (6.71 / 7.03 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm 50.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.01lbs / 15.88kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 2.01lbs / 0.91kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,493 lbs / 1,584 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m torpedoes - 1.426 t each, 8.556 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 570.00 ft / 173.74 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 80.00 ft / 24.38 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 133 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 429.00 ft / 130.76 m 19.74 ft / 6.02 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.00 ft / 13.72 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 100,000 shp / 74,600 Kw = 31.77 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,067 tons
Complement:
661 - 860
Cost:
£6.353 million / $25.412 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 902 tons, 6.2 %
- Guns: 885 tons, 6.1 %
- Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,537 tons, 24.3 %
- Belts: 1,468 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 157 tons, 1.1 %
- Armament: 295 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,541 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Towers: 77 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,806 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,171 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,712 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.8 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,225 lbs / 8,267 Kg = 46.8 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.515 / 0.522
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.71 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 132.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.0 %
Waterplane Area: 30,317 Square feet or 2,816 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 589 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
I made a third Springsharp design using the 8"/50 BL Mark VIII that the County-class heavy cruisers carried, but with the same turret armor as Belfast and Edinburgh. Armament weight has increased only slightly but composite strength has decreased to 0.92. To get the weight in line, I simulated the addition of a hull plug by increasing the length and block coefficient, so this ship is about 1,000 tons heavier than Belfast. The main belts also had to be stretched but not as much as on the Minotaur above. Power was also increased to 90,000 shp to compensate for the increased weight.
HMS Polyphemus, Royal Navy heavy cruiser laid down 1936
Displacement:
11,236 t light; 11,768 t standard; 12,873 t normal; 13,758 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(648.04 ft / 640.00 ft) x 64.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.13 ft)
(197.52 m / 195.07 m) x 19.51 m x (6.71 / 7.05 m)
Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm 50.0 cal guns - 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.01lbs / 15.88kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 2.01lbs / 0.91kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,501 lbs / 1,134 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m torpedoes - 1.426 t each, 8.556 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 120 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 399.10 ft / 121.65 m 20.44 ft / 6.23 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.00 ft / 13.72 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 31.52 kts
Range 12,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,990 tons
Complement:
603 - 785
Cost:
£5.238 million / $20.950 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 626 tons, 4.9 %
- Guns: 609 tons, 4.7 %
- Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,176 tons, 24.7 %
- Belts: 1,309 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 151 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 258 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,387 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Towers: 71 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,525 tons, 19.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,508 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,637 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 3.1 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,864 lbs / 7,649 Kg = 65.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 119.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,291 Square feet or 2,535 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 543 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Displacement:
11,236 t light; 11,768 t standard; 12,873 t normal; 13,758 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(648.04 ft / 640.00 ft) x 64.00 ft x (22.00 / 23.13 ft)
(197.52 m / 195.07 m) x 19.51 m x (6.71 / 7.05 m)
Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm 50.0 cal guns - 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.01lbs / 15.88kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 2.01lbs / 0.91kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,501 lbs / 1,134 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m torpedoes - 1.426 t each, 8.556 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 9.67 ft / 2.95 m
Upper: 4.50" / 114 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 120 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.50" / 13 mm 399.10 ft / 121.65 m 20.44 ft / 6.23 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 45.00 ft / 13.72 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 31.52 kts
Range 12,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,990 tons
Complement:
603 - 785
Cost:
£5.238 million / $20.950 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 626 tons, 4.9 %
- Guns: 609 tons, 4.7 %
- Weapons: 17 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,176 tons, 24.7 %
- Belts: 1,309 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 151 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 258 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,387 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Towers: 71 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,525 tons, 19.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,508 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,637 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 3.1 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,864 lbs / 7,649 Kg = 65.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.92 ft / 6.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 119.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.7 %
Waterplane Area: 27,291 Square feet or 2,535 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 543 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room