Pilgrim Road to Mecca? What's there for the pilgrims to see?
I think these names might've been switched around @Basileus444.
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An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
IT'S HAPPENING! *vibrates excitedly* Victory seems a forgone conclusion, and I just can't wait for what follows!
Considering the difficulties expressed in terms of logistics and the limitations of the fleet, I wonder if this will lead to a peace-time expansion of said fleet? If Demetrios is about "Solving Problems" then having a fleet that can deploy and support the army at this sort of scale seems important, especially for Ody to "avenge him". Plus, that'd be able to support solving the African Problem (and by proxy the Atlantic Problem) and provide a backbone for solving the Persian Problem. Probably not a great help for Egypt though, but I don't think that needs anything near this scale of force.
It does seem that D3 is truly setting the background for a New Niketas Period under Ody, and it seems as much by tragedy as by design that his actions are those of a Forgotten Emperor. Glad to see that he's remembered as the founder of the Modern Roman Empire though, and that he's being recognised as a war criminal. I expect that might be a common theme for Siderosi Emperors, especially those inspired by their ancestor.
(Now that is a scary thought, an Empire from Vienna to Samarkand? Bit early to call it, and potentially a bit mental to consider, but well, sometimes you just have to go home
)
Considering the difficulties expressed in terms of logistics and the limitations of the fleet, I wonder if this will lead to a peace-time expansion of said fleet? If Demetrios is about "Solving Problems" then having a fleet that can deploy and support the army at this sort of scale seems important, especially for Ody to "avenge him". Plus, that'd be able to support solving the African Problem (and by proxy the Atlantic Problem) and provide a backbone for solving the Persian Problem. Probably not a great help for Egypt though, but I don't think that needs anything near this scale of force.
It does seem that D3 is truly setting the background for a New Niketas Period under Ody, and it seems as much by tragedy as by design that his actions are those of a Forgotten Emperor. Glad to see that he's remembered as the founder of the Modern Roman Empire though, and that he's being recognised as a war criminal. I expect that might be a common theme for Siderosi Emperors, especially those inspired by their ancestor.
(Now that is a scary thought, an Empire from Vienna to Samarkand? Bit early to call it, and potentially a bit mental to consider, but well, sometimes you just have to go home
)
Please note the earlier update has been edited from its original form.
I added a couple of additional paragraphs at the end when discussing the costs of the mass transfer of troops for the Romans. I want to make it absolutely clear that while the Romans managed to pull it off this time, it was not easy and it was not cheap. Actions have consequences.
The additional paragraphs are also posted here:
There are further costs as well. Tax exemptions to compensate for more expensive foodstuffs sound nice, but they do nothing to help the unskilled laborer who has to buy food now but pays taxes after harvest time. Plus his poverty means his tax burden was lower anyway, so the exemption carries less heft. The setup is more beneficial to the mesoi and dynatoi, who are less injured by the price hikes anyway. This also impacts said laborer’s family. The number of poor Roman children who die that year (as a pre-industrial society, this is appallingly high by modern standards already) is higher than usual, due to poorer and less nutrition. Plus less births because of underfed would-be mothers. It is not possible to have a specific number of the losses, but it’s undoubtedly in the thousands too.
There are disturbances in several cities and towns, including Constantinople, some of which develop into food riots (although not in the capital). These are all quickly put down by authorities, but Demetrios’ pro-poor tarnish is wearing rather thin at the moment. The distribution of free produce from the Sweet Waters and forced economies in the White Palace kitchens help a little, but only a small fraction.
(I'll respond to comments posted before this announcement in my usual response post, but I wanted to get this out sooner rather than later.)
Oh I can’t wait for this epic battle!
Just surround the Latins and just send a bunch of lead at them...
Epic? Just the army that showed up in part before last to break the siege has over 150,000 men to 61,000. And Amirales army which hasn't shown up yet another 70,000, it outnumbers the Germans just on it's own. Sledgehammer meet egg. If any Germans aside from individual stragglers make it away it's will be a failure.
Well, one Ottoman war over, and the next one is up for 1641...
The Shah is ending this war in a not-so advantageous position, but it could have been worse for him...though I suspect holding Damascus and Jerusalem is going to be difficult, at the end of such a long supply line, and ultimately not worth it.
On the other hand, the Latin Alliance and the Wittelsbach Emperor are going to be hammered. Outnumbered more than three-to-one in enemy territory, while they were already making a siege? This is a bad situation, no doubt about it.
Worse, even if they somehow manage to not get destroyed in the first day of battle, their supply lines are cut and Belgrade is besieged.
At some point it doesn't matter how good your Generals are if your troops have not the food and the water to fill their stomachs...
The word disaster comes to mind for what is certainly about to happen. There was already turnmoil and difficulties in the Holy Roman Empire, but if they really lose more than 61 000 men and lose all the gains of this campaigning season, the political arena is going to be ugly, very ugly. Constantinople will demand a return to the pre-war frontier at the very least, and I have a feeling the ransom one demands for an Emperor is not exactly small...
The Shah is ending this war in a not-so advantageous position, but it could have been worse for him...though I suspect holding Damascus and Jerusalem is going to be difficult, at the end of such a long supply line, and ultimately not worth it.
On the other hand, the Latin Alliance and the Wittelsbach Emperor are going to be hammered. Outnumbered more than three-to-one in enemy territory, while they were already making a siege? This is a bad situation, no doubt about it.
Worse, even if they somehow manage to not get destroyed in the first day of battle, their supply lines are cut and Belgrade is besieged.
At some point it doesn't matter how good your Generals are if your troops have not the food and the water to fill their stomachs...
The word disaster comes to mind for what is certainly about to happen. There was already turnmoil and difficulties in the Holy Roman Empire, but if they really lose more than 61 000 men and lose all the gains of this campaigning season, the political arena is going to be ugly, very ugly. Constantinople will demand a return to the pre-war frontier at the very least, and I have a feeling the ransom one demands for an Emperor is not exactly small...
As interesting as the continuing Latin War is, the notes on the Egyptian campaign really caught my attention. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Egypt should have gone through a complete demographic collapse at this point, right? From the Roman-Ethiopian campaigns of Andreas I's time, to the Great Uprising, to the outright genocide here, how many millions must have died in the expulsion of Islam from Egypt? That's bound to have serious economic and military repercussions for Egypt in the future. I'd imagine it's comparable to the Mongols in Persia, where it's estimated that 25% of the civilian population of the region was killed, and the results cast a long shadow over Persia's future. I'd be very interested in seeing if and how Egypt reaps a bitter harvest from their actions.
Assuming IRV stands for Imperial Roman Vessel the Greek shorthand would be ARS - Aftokratorikó Romaïkò Skáfos
That based on a quick google translate so take it with a grain of salt but it does hold together well.
On to the update:
1) Ibrahim has been handed a poison pill. Even with 7 years to develop links he has functionally received an island while giving up the last natural defenses between Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia. Next war the Romans get to march an army directly onto the plains of North Iraq and he has no choice but to meet it head on. Interior Palestine is useless as a base for anything more than raids unless/until he has Northern Mesopotamia back. Ottomans don’t even get the breathing room of peace to try to prepare for juggernaught coming down onto them because now he has to march back across Persia to fight the Afghans. Best case scenario he will have 5 years of a peaceful realm to prepare and that will not be enough.
2) I’ll admit I didn’t think the Egyptians would go straight genocide so I guess I’ve gotta adjust how far south than can push the border. In hindsight it does make sense ITTL as both sides have been having pogroms and massacres for hundreds of years so it makes sense it’s reached the point of “Egypt’s not big enough for the both of us”. Roman actions in Palestine likely served as a handy blueprint.
3) Good lord that’s a lot of soldiers to throw against 61 000 men. They have 40000 just as a blocking force and another like 200000 as the main army. Seems a bit overkill but I suppose that’s the idea.
4) I’m almost more interested in what happens after the battle of Thessaloniki. Upwards of a quarter million soldiers with nothing to fight. I’d imagine a lot of them will get settled in Northern Mesopotamia with their families but there are still gonna be a lot of spare soldiers for 1635 campaigning and the only major theatre left is Lombardy and into Germany.
5) Germany and Poland are about to lose their rulers, their commanders, a lot of nobility, and their last, best army. I stand by the assertion that a city in “Latin Europe” is going to get the Carthage treatment. It might not be Munich or Vienna if only because by the time Roman artillery reaches either city Germany will be offering all the gold for peace but a city in Northern Italy or Hungary would serve as a good enough example. Razing Milan would also have the benefit of crippling Lombardy while adhering to the agreement with “The 3 Johns” just saying....
That based on a quick google translate so take it with a grain of salt but it does hold together well.
On to the update:
1) Ibrahim has been handed a poison pill. Even with 7 years to develop links he has functionally received an island while giving up the last natural defenses between Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia. Next war the Romans get to march an army directly onto the plains of North Iraq and he has no choice but to meet it head on. Interior Palestine is useless as a base for anything more than raids unless/until he has Northern Mesopotamia back. Ottomans don’t even get the breathing room of peace to try to prepare for juggernaught coming down onto them because now he has to march back across Persia to fight the Afghans. Best case scenario he will have 5 years of a peaceful realm to prepare and that will not be enough.
2) I’ll admit I didn’t think the Egyptians would go straight genocide so I guess I’ve gotta adjust how far south than can push the border. In hindsight it does make sense ITTL as both sides have been having pogroms and massacres for hundreds of years so it makes sense it’s reached the point of “Egypt’s not big enough for the both of us”. Roman actions in Palestine likely served as a handy blueprint.
3) Good lord that’s a lot of soldiers to throw against 61 000 men. They have 40000 just as a blocking force and another like 200000 as the main army. Seems a bit overkill but I suppose that’s the idea.
4) I’m almost more interested in what happens after the battle of Thessaloniki. Upwards of a quarter million soldiers with nothing to fight. I’d imagine a lot of them will get settled in Northern Mesopotamia with their families but there are still gonna be a lot of spare soldiers for 1635 campaigning and the only major theatre left is Lombardy and into Germany.
5) Germany and Poland are about to lose their rulers, their commanders, a lot of nobility, and their last, best army. I stand by the assertion that a city in “Latin Europe” is going to get the Carthage treatment. It might not be Munich or Vienna if only because by the time Roman artillery reaches either city Germany will be offering all the gold for peace but a city in Northern Italy or Hungary would serve as a good enough example. Razing Milan would also have the benefit of crippling Lombardy while adhering to the agreement with “The 3 Johns” just saying....
All of the above put together are probably less severe than the complete demographic collapse Egypt suffered under the OTL Mamluks, leaving Egypt far more populous than it was IRL at that date. The Mamluk period in Egypt was so destructive that it beggars belief. According to al-Sayyid-Marsot, at the end of the Mamluk period due to lack of manpower to work the fields the area of Egypt under cultivation had declined to one fifth of what it was when they rose to power. Not declined by one fifth, declined to one fifth.
The main reason for this historically was that the Mamluks were essentially in almost constant state of bloody, destructive domestic war -- when they were not fighting succession conflicts, they were raiding their subjects just because they felt like it. This utter senseless destruction created ideal conditions for plague, and the black death swept over Egypt 19 times during the Mamluk period.
Deleted member 67076
Looks like the Romans and the Ottomans are scraping the bottom of the barrel as much as their economies can deliver. The latter additionally with regard to manpower.
Sideroi warfare doctrine: there’s no kill like overkill.
The question I’m curious about is whether Theodor loses his mind before or after he sees the gigantic army encircling him.
If a Roman Kaisar fetches 1.5 mil, how much would a false Emperor get? Double? Either way Demetrios is going to get a massive payday provided he captures all those juicy high value targets.
The question I’m curious about is whether Theodor loses his mind before or after he sees the gigantic army encircling him.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Control of access to the Black Sea and virtual control of the the Suez area gives them massive power. Subordinate powers in Southern Italy and Sicily gives control on the centre of the Med. A friendly power in Spain means the Mediterranean is going to be a under the control of this Roman empire for the most part. A massive wank by itself.
This exactly. The Ottomans have a similar population to Rome overall but that is spread over a considerably greater area with much worse transport links. Romes major cities are all either on the coast or within a couple days march of one with all the efficiency of shipping involved. The Ottomans are far more reliant on comparatively limited land transport.
Simple fact of the matter is a generation ago the Ottomans at the absolute height of their power with their absolute best commander were able to fight a distracted and tired Rome to a draw. In the present a full effort push by the Ottomans didn't end in utter disaster only because Rome considered the Levant and Mesopotamia a secondary theatre. When Rome returns in full force upon the Ottomans they will be lucky if they only lose Northern Mesopotamia alongside all the "gains" of this war. This will only exacerbate the long term divergence of the two empires.
If/when Rome is able to take and consolidate the line Damascus - Palmyra - Deir Ez Zor - Mosul they will have secured fully the Levant and Anatolia. Any future war will be fought in Mesopotamia and the Zagros which will be devastating for the Ottomans. The Romans also go from a long winding frontier that currently is hundreds of kilometers that is practically indefensible absent a huge number of fortresses to a line that can be anchored fully by 3; Mosul, Palmyra, Deir Ez Zor. Even allowing for secondary fortresses Rome would be able to save huge amounts of money with this new line and similar to how Anatolia flourished once the interior was secured the Levant will be able to flourish as well once the threat a generational wars is removed.
All this presupposes that Rome will fight a successful war against Ottomans in the near future and will still have the bloody mindedness to depopulate the non-compliant populations from their new conquests. Something I consider very likely. The Sideros dynasty seems to be off to a strong start and has combined Roman bureaucratic acumen with Timurid ferocity. Could lead to a very 2 tiered opinion of the early Sideros dynasty in the "modern" era. On one hand loved in Rhomania for breaking the cycle, securing Anatolia/Levant by seizing Mosul, and bringing stability by establishing settler populations in the conquered territories strong enough to cement control and prevent revolts. On the other hated by Latin Europe for the horrors inflicted on Lombardy/Germany/Hungary (I still think a city gets razed) and feared by the Ottomans for the genocide inflicted on conquered populations that would put Shah Rukh to shame.
I agree with most of that.
Just one nitpick:
Just one nitpick:
IIRC @Basileus444 mentioned that the Ottoman population is relatively small compared to the Roman Empire. As in the Romans have ~22 million subjects while the Ottomans barely make 9 million.
I swear it was 22 million to 19 million. If its only 9 million Ottomans are screwed
Vince
Monthly Donor
I'm guessing Theodor gets hits with a stray shot or falls off a horse or something similar in the coming battle which renders him invalid (think CK2 attribute). While Casmir gets killed during the retreat from Thessaloniki by that female partisan Anna with the cannibals we've read about a few chapters back. They really liked killing Templars and Casmir is quite the religious extremist.
I mean, at ~1700 the Safavids had a population of around ~5 million, as opposed to the Ottoman Empire's ~25 million. This is after significant population growth since their population of ~3 million at around ~1600. Persia is not a good breadbasket.
Unless the Ottomans go the path of the RL Timurids and shift themselves into a pan-Indian Empire or at least annex Hindustan, they're going to become a Secondary Power. And fat chance of that happening now that the place is home to a powerful Sikh Empire.
One hopes that the Rhomans remember that the only thing more dangerous than a wounded animal is a wounded animal that's been backed into a corner.
One war ends in the East while the West begins its climactic showdown, I can see why D3 is called the Forgotten Emperor, his son is indeed going to overshadow him, especially that bit where Ody will avenge him. Interesting to see he's remembered as the founder of the Modern Roman Empire though. His status as a war criiminal in modern views is unsurprising given who the Sideros family traces descent to, I suppose it's in the blood
That bit on the lack of food is interesting, maybe that's going to be one of the primary factors why the modern world TTL only has half the total population of OTL?
That bit on the lack of food is interesting, maybe that's going to be one of the primary factors why the modern world TTL only has half the total population of OTL?