Italian and Vichy Generalplan Ost in their colonies in an Axis victory

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Say the some kind of axis victory where Vichy France and Italy retain or gains expanded colony holdings

Could Vichy France and/or Italy launch their own versions of Generalplan Ost in response to colonial resistance, exterminating any rebellious regions.

What regions would likely be targeted in such a program.

What would be the death toll of such genocides.
 
I don't think Italy had any plans resembling Generalplan Ost for her colonial holdings in Africa but you could see her attempting to wipe out resistance in certain regions of Ethiopia via unintentional extermination through saturating a region controlled by the Arbegnoch with gas, as they did in Nekemte.
 
They didn't but I was wondering if one could develop in response to colonial unrest.
Despite all the atrocities that the Italians committed in Ethiopia, I doubt they'd go THIS far. A plan might be developed by the more retaliatory members of the Italian colonial administration which could happen if Graziani remains as Viceroy of Italian East Africa past 1937 but I don't think it'd be implemented.
 

Garrison

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They didn't but I was wondering if one could develop in response to colonial unrest.

No. because Generalplan Ost is a plan for the systematic annihilation of 10s of millions of people that had zero to do with unrest. However repressive the French and Italians might be they aren't psychotics like the Nazi leadership.
 
No. because Generalplan Ost is a plan for the systematic annihilation of 10s of millions of people that had zero to do with unrest.
I used Generalplan Os as synonym for wide-scale planned genocide

However repressive the French and Italians might be they aren't psychotics like the Nazi leadership.
There been genocides done due to rebellions and not like Vichy France or Italy weren't above practicing collectivized punishment or mass murder
 

Garrison

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I used Generalplan Os as synonym for wide-scale planned genocide


There been genocides done due to rebellions and not like Vichy France or Italy weren't above practicing collectivized punishment or mass murder

But my answer remains the same, the French and Italians are not insane enough to adopt a systematic plan of destruction to remove the native population of their colonies, which is what Generalplan Ost actually means, it is not a synonym for collective punishment. it is a very specific, cold-blooded scheme of extermination. You might as well try and conflate the Amritsar Massacre with the Holocaust.
 
But my answer remains the same, the French and Italians are not insane enough to adopt a systematic plan of destruction to remove the native population of their colonies,
Would something like the Anfal genocide be more likely for rebellious regions

which is what Generalplan Ost actually means, it is not a synonym for collective punishment.
but i used it as synonym for wide-scale planned genocide
 
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CalBear

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That doesn't seem to be likely. Italy (well Mussolini) specifically wanted to reestablish the Roman Empire, or as at least as close a version as could be managed with a dominant Reich. Colonial empires NEED the colony's population to turn a profit. France had long had its colonies and was already in a mercantilism style relationship with them, there is no reason that Vichy France would find the set-up any less useful than the Republic.

The Reich was fairly unique, at least in the last 500 years, in that it actually wanted to depopulate large regions of the land it conquered in anticipation of a growing population that did not exist, and in any normal society wouldn't exist.
 

Garrison

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Would something like the Anfal genocide be more likely for rebellious regions

Why exactly are you so keen on genocide? What exactly is the ATL you are thinking of?

but i used it as synonym for wide-scale planned genocide

Question above stands and it has been made pretty clear that the Italians and the French would not indulge in such a genocide. However brutal the French, Italian, and indeed British empires might have been they never contemplated anything like Generalplan Ost.
 
That doesn't seem to be likely. Italy (well Mussolini) specifically wanted to reestablish the Roman Empire, or as at least as close a version as could be managed with a dominant Reich. Colonial empires NEED the colony's population to turn a profit. France had long had its colonies and was already in a mercantilism style relationship with them, there is no reason that Vichy France would find the set-up any less useful than the Republic.

The Reich was fairly unique, at least in the last 500 years, in that it actually wanted to depopulate large regions of the land it conquered in anticipation of a growing population that did not exist, and in any normal society wouldn't exist.

Germany was not inspired by the colonial empires of its contemporary European powers so much as it was by the settlement colonies of the West, those of Britain particularly. There, Indigenous populations had been marginalized, first politically subordinate and then reduced sharply in numbers, before their territories were seized and eventually repopulated by migrants dispatched by the colonizing powers. For the Nazis, the Mississippi prefigured the Volga in their preferred future, each river becoming a riverine corridor in the heart of a newly settled territory.

Was it possible that Vichy France and Italy might do the same sorts of things in their spheres that Nazi Germany did in it? I'd argue that if Nazi Germany has established a precedent for the genocidal recolonization of Europe, it will make like acts more thinkable on the parts of its satellites. We could turn to the bloody conquest of Algeria by France in the 19th century, to the much more recent but comparably bloody Italian conquests of Libya then Ethiopia in the 20th century, and note the potential for Generalplan Ost-type plans in those territories by their rulers. An Italy that engaged in indiscriminate reprisals against Slovenes, for instance, and had prominent members of its government imagine even Slovenes' extermination, might well not flinch at the idea of ending the Arab problem in Libya.
 
Germany was not inspired by the colonial empires of its contemporary European powers so much as it was by the settlement colonies of the West, those of Britain particularly. There, Indigenous populations had been marginalized, first politically subordinate and then reduced sharply in numbers, before their territories were seized and eventually repopulated by migrants dispatched by the colonizing powers. For the Nazis, the Mississippi prefigured the Volga in their preferred future, each river becoming a riverine corridor in the heart of a newly settled territory.

Was it possible that Vichy France and Italy might do the same sorts of things in their spheres that Nazi Germany did in it? I'd argue that if Nazi Germany has established a precedent for the genocidal recolonization of Europe, it will make like acts more thinkable on the parts of its satellites. We could turn to the bloody conquest of Algeria by France in the 19th century, to the much more recent but comparably bloody Italian conquests of Libya then Ethiopia in the 20th century, and note the potential for Generalplan Ost-type plans in those territories by their rulers. An Italy that engaged in indiscriminate reprisals against Slovenes, for instance, and had prominent members of its government imagine even Slovenes' extermination, might well not flinch at the idea of ending the Arab problem in Libya.
Didn't italian colonialism in Lybia produce the dead of 1/4 of the local population? Its not Generalplan Ost but it was still probably a genocide.
 
Didn't italian colonialism in Lybia produce the dead of 1/4 of the local population? Its not Generalplan Ost but it was still probably a genocide.

My understanding is that some of the population drop might actually also involve the flight of nomads to neighbouring territories, but yes, there was mass death.

Italian fascism did have separate origins from Naziism, and Italian fascism did manifest these differences occasionally, but Fascist Italy certainly had a potential to engage in genocide.
 
I would think a genocide committed in the colonies to be more likely in the case of Italy, mainly because of the relatively recent commission if atrocities against people's in Europe and Africa who refused Italianization. I can relatively easily imagine a Fascist Italy that decides to get rid of Arabs in its North African territories.

A Vichy France doing the same in the Maghreb, even in Algeria, seems less likely. French colonial rule certainly had its problems, and especially in Algeria Muslims were consigned to secondary status, but the sheer distance in time between Vichy and the atrocities of early French colonial rule is noteworthy. For a couple of generations by the 1940s, France had a relatively workable colonial model operating in the different parts of the Maghreb where Muslims had a stable subordinate role under French rule. There was no recent history of violent conflict to make a final solution doable.
 
Surviving Vichy and Italian empires into the Modern day with an occasional genocide to keep the natives in check
Will these colonial empires see the Congo Free State as a good role model to emulate in treating the locals, especially if the more radical/extreme fascists take over when Petain and Mussolini die in France and Italy respectively, I may ask?
 
Will these colonial empires see the Congo Free State as a good role model to emulate in treating the locals, especially if the more radical/extreme fascists take over when Petain and Mussolini die in France and Italy respectively, I may ask?

It is not clear to me that the atrocities of the Congo Free State, however intentional, were intended to actually depopulate Congo. If nothing else, where would the big businesses get their workers?

If we go with the Generalplan Ost model, I can most easily imagine the extermination of groups directly competing with the French and Italians for territory, living space. Presumably North Africa, then, even Italian Ethiopia, would be at much greater risk than a sub-Saharan Africa that saw little European settlement.
 
It is not clear to me that the atrocities of the Congo Free State, however intentional, were intended to actually depopulate Congo. If nothing else, where would the big businesses get their workers?
They weren't intended to depopulate the Congo but it did turn Belgians a pretty penny so that could provide a motive for adopting such tactics
 
Italy wasn't above localized ethnic cleansing to free up parcels of land for settlers, they did so in Libya and Slovenia, so I could potentially see that scale up to large scale genocide if Mussolini's natalist policies suddenly started working and produced a population boom "necessitating" the freeing up of land in the colonies.

Vichy, I simply don't see it. As others have mentioned the existing French colonial model was fine for Petain's purposes.
 
They weren't intended to depopulate the Congo but it did turn Belgians a pretty penny so that could provide a motive for adopting such tactics

But exterminating the Congolese population was not the goal, if only because they still wanted workers.

Italy wasn't above localized ethnic cleansing to free up parcels of land for settlers, they did so in Libya and Slovenia, so I could potentially see that scale up to large scale genocide if Mussolini's natalist policies suddenly started working and produced a population boom "necessitating" the freeing up of land in the colonies.

For that matter, it would be viable even if Italy did not have such a population surplus. Making a desert and calling it peace is not a new tactic for governments based out of Rome.

Vichy I simply don't see it. As others have mentioned the existing French colonial model was fine for Petain's purposes.

Much depends, mind, on how Vichy would evolved. Otherwise, agreed.
 
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