Trying for the Indian Ocean, or scattering as raiders are the first two that cross my mind. Relatively speaking the fleet had success. So perhaps it had no better outcomes?
Options German Pacific fleet 1914
- Thread starter Carl Schwamberger
- Start date
a) Indian ocean as mentioned: Coaling is a chore. The two ACs use a lot. Suspect that the ACs would have to intern themselves in Dutch Java. Best case the two ACs make it to east Africa where their crews and guns would be useful. (note: some of the LCs at Coronel linked up with Spee in the Pacific, so those would remain there independently raiding)
b) OTL as mentioned. However the fleet dilly dallied a bit after Cornel, perhaps avoid the Falklands, stick to the center of the Atlantic and run for home.
c) OTL, but after Coronel, gather up as many merchants out of neutral ports loaded with cargo like Nitrates and all break for home.
d) Stay at Tsingtao, where the guns and crews might be useful in the defense.
e) Lurk in the Carolines, attacking the Allied invasion fleets at Rabaul or some place. (or just base at Rabaul and defend that place).
OTL performance was meh, sure they won at Coronel, but actual results, a couple of old British cruisers sunk hardly useful elsewhere, a fleet in being effect the British had to deal with sure, but the British had lots of ships to cover that sort of thing.
Honestly C) a general order to break for home, gathering up as many merchants as possible, loaded with cargo, early in the war, would have been most useful to Germany in a long war scenario. (commerce raiding just wasn't going to achieve much, Mahan and Tirpitz are correct)
Is Germany is expecting a short war and then negotiations, then fighting to keep Pacific colonies under German control as long as possible makes sense as well as the PR showing that the navy had fought and contributed to the victory.
b) OTL as mentioned. However the fleet dilly dallied a bit after Cornel, perhaps avoid the Falklands, stick to the center of the Atlantic and run for home.
c) OTL, but after Coronel, gather up as many merchants out of neutral ports loaded with cargo like Nitrates and all break for home.
d) Stay at Tsingtao, where the guns and crews might be useful in the defense.
e) Lurk in the Carolines, attacking the Allied invasion fleets at Rabaul or some place. (or just base at Rabaul and defend that place).
OTL performance was meh, sure they won at Coronel, but actual results, a couple of old British cruisers sunk hardly useful elsewhere, a fleet in being effect the British had to deal with sure, but the British had lots of ships to cover that sort of thing.
Honestly C) a general order to break for home, gathering up as many merchants as possible, loaded with cargo, early in the war, would have been most useful to Germany in a long war scenario. (commerce raiding just wasn't going to achieve much, Mahan and Tirpitz are correct)
Is Germany is expecting a short war and then negotiations, then fighting to keep Pacific colonies under German control as long as possible makes sense as well as the PR showing that the navy had fought and contributed to the victory.
The IJN was hunting them. Could an alternate route to the Indian Ocean lead them to a fight with the IJN?
And would they be able to coal up in such a route?
Since everyone was expecting a short war remaining scattered in the Pacific makes the most sense. But, that's not what the Germans did. So, I don't know what they were thinking.
Driftless
Donor
Didn't von Spee worry that their primary base at Tsingtao was very vulnerable, Rabaul too, making repairs and resupply difficult, even in the short run? The Germans could scratch up some coal, but not enough for all of the ships.
Pre-war, maybe some artful deals with pliant neutrals (South America?) to stockpile some coal and storable foods? I don't see much opportunity for that arrangement in the Indian Ocean. The Emden kept going in part by using coal and other supplies from the ships they captured.
Pre-war, maybe some artful deals with pliant neutrals (South America?) to stockpile some coal and storable foods? I don't see much opportunity for that arrangement in the Indian Ocean. The Emden kept going in part by using coal and other supplies from the ships they captured.
Driftless
Donor
I know HMS Australia worried von Spee a ton, but the Pacific is huge and in 1914 with limited radio contact and no radar, the ability to hide from that ship may have been under-appreciated by von Spee. Of course, that means von Spee would need to stay away from the shipping channels around Singapore and the South China Sea; so there's that problem.
A larger, more urgent problem for the German Ost Asien Geschwader was Japan, which at this time already had both the Kongo and Hiei in active service, as well as the large number of older ships, especially the armored cruisers, in the Japanese Navy.
Given these certainties, Von Spee wisely had chosen to leave the West Pacific, where these Japanese ships were operating and went to the South-East Pacific instead, were no such threads existed. Besides that, Chile was not very unfriendly to Germany at the time, as was Argentina, so he could at least get some support in especially supplies there.
And there is the rub. A raider needs coal and victims. That makes it a lot harder to hide than in the days of sail.
trajen777
Banned
He was actually ordered back to Germany, after Cor. however he did not feel it was possible to make it back. Their was another German ship (cant remember the name) that actually skirted Antarctica and then went north around into the south Atlantic. It ended up at a USA port.
Anyway i have always wondered if it would have been better to break the fleet into separate pieces. Cause as much havoc in British shipping as possible then when coal ammo was running low head to neutral ports. I think any impact that could have been achieved as a fleet was achieved. However as separate ships you might have had more impact. Agreed the AC were really not constructed for this role.
Anyway i have always wondered if it would have been better to break the fleet into separate pieces. Cause as much havoc in British shipping as possible then when coal ammo was running low head to neutral ports. I think any impact that could have been achieved as a fleet was achieved. However as separate ships you might have had more impact. Agreed the AC were really not constructed for this role.
Md139115
Banned
Spee had two colliers at his disposal and launched a successful raid on Tahiti, capturing much of the coal there. After that, he could have made the Atlantic and sailed all the way home on his stock.
Likewise, raiding was not the primary objective. The primary objective was survival.
The true limiting factor was ammunition. The squadron had been unable to top off from the bunkers at Tsingtao before being forced to flee, so they had only what was onboard at the time. After Coronel, their powder and shell rooms were more than half-empty, and even if they hadn’t been sunk at the Falklands, they probably would have run out in a running battle with the British at some point.
Deleted member 9338
The stock pile idea will fail as British agent were buying up coal and food stuff in most major ports.
One could wonder if the German Pacific fleet was instrumental in preventing the battle of Dogger Bank from being a disaster for the Germans.
One could say it was a decent British victory but if Battle cruiser squadrons was reinforced by an extra battle cruiser perhaps it would have been a rout.
HMS Australia was delayed in the Pacific by a need to cover operations against potential actions of the East Asian Squadron. Invincible was in dry Dock after the Falklands. HMS Indefatigable was in the Mediterranean awaiting HMS Inflexible relieving her, inflexible was delayed by minor participating in the Falklands.
So that's 4 battle cruisers schedules disrupted by the East Asia squadron. Perhaps if they were outnumbered 5:3 in battle cruisers the Germans would have quickly retreated (saving the ac blucher) or perhaps the Germans would have lost a battle cruiser due to the increased British fire.
Just to clarify I'm just musing on the amount of distraction caused by the East Asia squadron at this stage of the war. I'm not saying things would have gone one way or the other if things were different.
One could say it was a decent British victory but if Battle cruiser squadrons was reinforced by an extra battle cruiser perhaps it would have been a rout.
HMS Australia was delayed in the Pacific by a need to cover operations against potential actions of the East Asian Squadron. Invincible was in dry Dock after the Falklands. HMS Indefatigable was in the Mediterranean awaiting HMS Inflexible relieving her, inflexible was delayed by minor participating in the Falklands.
So that's 4 battle cruisers schedules disrupted by the East Asia squadron. Perhaps if they were outnumbered 5:3 in battle cruisers the Germans would have quickly retreated (saving the ac blucher) or perhaps the Germans would have lost a battle cruiser due to the increased British fire.
Just to clarify I'm just musing on the amount of distraction caused by the East Asia squadron at this stage of the war. I'm not saying things would have gone one way or the other if things were different.
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At one point I wondered what the utility in getting to a German west African port would have? Does a 'squadron in being' ported on the S Atlantic discomfit the Brits all that much? Getting to a East African port looks a lot more difficult. to many restricted passages through the Indonesian archepllego.
Plus, they would stand a good chance of being bottled up in the E. African ports of Dar Es Salaam or Tanga.
Driftless
Donor
I believe the Germans estimated that their West African colonies were going to be overrun fairly quickly. Just too close to large and important British (and French) shipping routes and colonies.
Luderitz in Southwest Afrika might have been briefly available, but I'd expect the RN kept a close eye on activity there, till South African land forces occupied the city in 1915
Luderitz in Southwest Afrika might have been briefly available, but I'd expect the RN kept a close eye on activity there, till South African land forces occupied the city in 1915
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Importantly, it was HMAS Australia. The Australian Government directed tasking (e.g. escorting troop movements), not the RN. Unlike HMS New Zealand.
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
I’m sorry! Please call off the emu hit team!
It's great how the Drop Bears have moved the blames to the emus!