Sea Lion instead of Norway

Not to validate the idea of the proposal but in May 1940 none of the East coast ports were ready to immobilise themselves. Lowestoft and Yarmouth, for example, could do little to stop troopships arriving at the docks especially if a coup de main had seized the port areas. The defence would be the RAF/RN harrying them across the North Sea and doing the same when they return for more. There are extensive areas of open beaches in addition to supplement the ports. The bigger ports might be harder nuts to crack as they had some garrison artillery. East Anglia is ideal country for movement being flat glacial till and technically a semi desert, were it not for the rivers from the Midlands. Capture these sorts of ports and the landing issue for stores is solved troops can be landed over open beaches if necessary to free up port capacity for stores. There is no Home Guard net to slow and waste the invaders before a counter attack. As usual we come back to the reinforcement issue in a hostile environment. No Norway so no KM losses means that they can delay the RN for a few hours. The Luftwaffe will be hard put to put anything over the far side bar the medium bombers and Me110s given the range. So, while the KM and LW are playing away the French are playing on home ground and probably joining in the North Sea free for all. With the invaders cut off and the KM/LW reeling Germany is invaded and it is all over by Christmas leaving the embarrassing issue of Soviet occupied Poland to be the new elephant in the room. After all, Britain and France went to war to liberate Poland.

OK, a few points.
Just because the east coast ports were unready for destruction as was, say, Dover, they are still unpleasant targets. You do have army and naval personell there, and they are armed. They know the port, you dont.

Now, your only real way of securing a port is by paratroops. Forget any ideas of men in small boats, the ports all had A/S boats which will spot this. So you have to airdrop , walk over and secure the port,while your invasion shipping is off the coast in the North Sea. With at the best Me110 cover, against the RAF fighters, and the FAA torpedo and dive bombers. That's going to end well. This is assuming that none of the RN submarines ambling around the North Sea looking for German ships spot them, and the coastal patrols magically miss them as well.

East Anglia is a lovely place for armoured warfare isnt really true (I used to live there). Its flat, certainly, but there are all these drainage ditches and rivers (its basically a drained swamp, after all).

Not sure how the KM is keeping the RN away for any longer than it takes them to sail there. Its a lot worse for them than Norway, no snowstorms to hide in and ifyou want to protect the invasion you have to stick close to them. While the big ships are sailing south, you get to play with the local destroyer forces, air attack, and submarines (you do realise your planning on landing close to the biggest RN submarine base, yes?) It's likely that the KM isnt just decimated, its completely wiped out.
 

Deleted member 9338

I am suggesting sending the entire Norway invasion force to England.

Are you proposing simply sending the Narvik force to the UK to invade? That barely consisted of 2500 troops and the RN decimated it when it was at Narvik, sending it into the heart of the British defences is a suicide mission.
 
I am suggesting sending the entire Norway invasion force to England.

Who will make lovely field hands in Canada when they are rounded up, if they make it to the UK.

I don't know If you get it or not but Sealion in all its form in OTL is nothing more than a bad joke
 
Flight distance for airborne troops that landed in Norway is about 740 km (Hamburg to Oslo). Flight distance from Cologne to London is 540 km but it requires overflying neutral Belgium and the Netherlands. Is there even a German airfield in early 1940 that would be in JU52 range of any part of the UK without flying over a neutral country?

The distance from Nordon, Germany to Newcastle upon Tyne is about 592 km, but it is likely the Ju-52 would be detected as the flight over sea would have no cover against radar detection which cover the Newcastle area at both high and low altitude.
 
Who will make lovely field hands in Canada when they are rounded up, if they make it to the UK.

I don't know If you get it or not but Sealion in all its form in OTL is nothing more than a bad joke

I think the point here is to explain why this particular operation is doomed. Sealion itself has been done to death but there is a reasonable amount of detail about amphibious operations in detail that a lay person would have no idea of. I mean how many of us save a few professionals on this board actual comprehend everything that goes into such an operation?

For example there has been a lot of talk about Rhine river barges despite the fact they were not used in Norway and over beach supply despite the obvious impediment of a lack of barges. The kind of vessels that were used for Norway and would have to be employed here are sea going merchant steamers and large motor vessels. These typically require ports to unload at. The kind of ports that would serve these were typically covered by coastal batteries in this era. There are however numerous fishing ports but these tend to be too small for vessels in the 1000 ton plus range of the sort which would be needed. Now such vessels do have some lighters but relying on these severely restricts the unloading speed.

That becomes an issue when you have RN destroyers likely baring down on you within a matter of hours. Fishing boats and some other small motor vessels might be employed but their cargo and troop capacity is limited and large numbers of them are still going to take a long time to unload...also most of them absolutely need those fishing ports rather than open beaches as they tend to lack more than small rowing boat as subsidiary craft and draw too much water to risk repeated beachings meaning using them would tend to be a one shot and fishing boats are rather valuable.

Not only that but the manoeuvre forces, that is troops who would expect to be capable of moving to either contest advances or retake ground as opposed to say coastal and anti-aircraft defence troops and service supply units, in Great Britain are at least twice the size of those available to Norway and include two armoured brigade. Neither of the latter is fully equipped and one has only light tanks but they come on top of other forces who do not need to fully defeat the enemy so much as force them to expend their ammunition, whereupon due to the resupply issues they have little choice but to negotiate becoming Canadian farm hands as you point out.
 
I am suggesting sending the entire Norway invasion force to England.

That still only amounts to less than 9000 men without most of their heavy equipment and little to no armour support and no chance of resupply or reinforcement. That's the entirety of the initial invasion force that could be shipped. I don't quite understand what you imagine such a force could achieve in Britain.
 
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And don't forget the paratroopers are only armed with a pistol, they have to unload their rifles and other weapons from cases dropped with them. That will take time which they likely won't have.

Maybe some gliders with the paratroopers? At least they will have their weapons available immediately.
 

TDM

Kicked
And don't forget the paratroopers are only armed with a pistol, they have to unload their rifles and other weapons from cases dropped with them. That will take time which they likely won't have.

Maybe some gliders with the paratroopers? At least they will have their weapons available immediately.

Can German transport planes and gliders even get to the UK from Germany (or even Denmark)?
 
So there is this organisation called The Royal Navy. Among its many fleets at this time is a formation called ‘The Home Fleet’. In April 1940 it alone was several times larger than the Kriegs Marine and its principle purpose which ultimately is the Royal Navy’s principle purpose was to prevent a hostile enemy fleet from invading the UK. Such an invasion force would very probably be detected and then intercepted by said Home Fleet and annihilated. Even if the planets aligned and this invasion force did manage to capture a port capable of managing the necessary logistics to support such an invasion force there is no way it can be used as the RN would be blockading it and the KM would be tied to it making it easy for the RN to concentrate force against it. Also any force trying to invade mainland UK is going to do so without any real air cover and will be at the mercy of the RAF.
 

TDM

Kicked
The distance from Nordon, Germany to Newcastle upon Tyne is about 592 km, but it is likely the Ju-52 would be detected as the flight over sea would have no cover against radar detection which cover the Newcastle area at both high and low altitude.

Yep, and while I'm not sure how adding gliders to the that effects range but I'm guessing it doesn't help
 
It may be possible to land a raiding force to wreck an East cost port, the British managed to do so in both world wars, however the force would need to be considered expendable & the Germans have much less navy to expend than the British.
It depends whether the resources expended are worth it to tie up additional British forces in port defence for the future.
 

nbcman

Donor
The distance from Nordon, Germany to Newcastle upon Tyne is about 592 km, but it is likely the Ju-52 would be detected as the flight over sea would have no cover against radar detection which cover the Newcastle area at both high and low altitude.
Were there any significant airfields there that could support a significant number of JU-52s? The only airfield that I find in this list of German Airfields is Hage:

Hage
(GER) (53 37 05 N – 07 17 10 E)
General
: operational airfield (Einsatzhafen I) 56 km WNW of
Wilhelmshaven, 28 km N of Emden, 6 km ENE of Norden and 1.6 km N
of the village of Hage in Lower Saxony.
History
: built in 1914 as an airship station with 4 immense dirigible
hangars, barracks and a gas production facility. Returned to
agricultural use after World War I and then taken over by the
Luftwaffe in 1935 and by 1937 had been developed into a fully
equipped operational airfield with buildings and barracks at the S end
and a munitions dump off the NW boundary. A 750 meter concrete
runway and a paved taxiway were built beginning at the end of 1940.
Hage was used very little after mid-1940.
Dimensions
: approx. 1280 x 1000 meters (1,400 x 1,100 yards).
Runway
: as already stated. Aside from the concrete runway, the
remainder of the airfield was grass in a low-lying area that was very
wet during the winter months

It wasn't significantly expanded until later in 1940 and was 'very wet during the winter months'. Not a very suitable candidate to base scores of JU-52s at.
 
As many have argued, Sea Lion is inpossible for the Germans to carry out in 1940/41 due to man6 causes including the lose of German naval units during Norwegian operations.

My question is, would the forces be arguably successful in landing on England’s east coast instead of Norway?

Wait... you mean in April 1940? With the french navy and air force still able to provide support on top of an intact RN (ie, no lost CV, cruisers, destroyers...)?! And German forces having to sail from german shores?

Not one german soldier would even set foot in the UK. I doubt any would even see the UK's shore...
 
You people are just not thinking about this outside the box enough. The way I see it there are actually a few things Germany could do in this scenario, but the most obvious one of course is that they just need to pull a reverse Garbo which was well within German intelligence capabilities and keep up the charade long enough to get a few fast boats up the Thames and capture London while Churchill is busy sending units south to fight a Channel invasion.

If necessary the RN could just be neutralized as part of the plan. I have some ideas for that too.
 
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TDM

Kicked
Wait... you mean in April 1940? With the french navy and air force still able to provide support on top of an intact RN (ie, no lost CV, cruisers, destroyers...)?! And German forces having to sail from german shores?

Not one german soldier would even set foot in the UK. I doubt any would even see the UK's shore...


And I'd forgotten about the French Navy, good point!
 
You people are just not thinking about this outside the box enough. The way I see it there are actually a few things Germany could do in this scenario, but the most obvious one of course is that they just need to pull a reverse Garbo which was well within German intelligence capabilities and keep up the charade long enough to get a few fast boats up the Thames and capture London while Churchill is busy sending units south to fight a Channel invasion.

If necessary the RN could just be neutralized as part of the plan. I have some ideas for that too.

Does this plan involve wooden badgers?
 
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