Do not put up afritical obsalacts to slow there rise there will be many other things that will hamper them
In the short temr trade up the sengal river could keep it afloat in the log term they will need to build more cities
Dark Crescent - A Timeline of the Mande Empire
- Thread starter Ibn Chaldun
- Start date
In the short temr trade up the sengal river could keep it afloat in the log term they will need to build more cities
SwampTiger
Banned
You are doing a good job of showing the struggles of early development. Strains are appearing in the economic and social fabric of empire. The manner in which the leaders address these strains will determine the future government, religion, and economy.
Naval infrastructure takes time to develop. England had a deeper naval background but didn't really develop a powerful navy until the Tudors. The West African coast had no real seafaring tradition. It also had no reason to develop major coastal cities until trade with the Europeans. TTL allows a native African commercial center to develop and dominate the coastal trade.
The Mande have products for trade: salt, cotton, cloth, paper, writing. It may develop additional goods: pottery, glass, sugar, flour, new crops.
It isn't a wank if the Mande continue to have struggles within. Not every project is an unqualified success.
Naval infrastructure takes time to develop. England had a deeper naval background but didn't really develop a powerful navy until the Tudors. The West African coast had no real seafaring tradition. It also had no reason to develop major coastal cities until trade with the Europeans. TTL allows a native African commercial center to develop and dominate the coastal trade.
The Mande have products for trade: salt, cotton, cloth, paper, writing. It may develop additional goods: pottery, glass, sugar, flour, new crops.
It isn't a wank if the Mande continue to have struggles within. Not every project is an unqualified success.
Speaking of problems...
I'm curious about how Ouali and Mukhtar feel about the emirate of Granada being encroached upon by the Christian powers of Iberia. I'm thinking the diplomatic corps that while the diplo corps are encouraging people to come to Mali, especially with them being more liberal than the north African Muslim powers, is Mali also lending warriors to the emirate to strengthen them?
I'm curious about how Ouali and Mukhtar feel about the emirate of Granada being encroached upon by the Christian powers of Iberia. I'm thinking the diplomatic corps that while the diplo corps are encouraging people to come to Mali, especially with them being more liberal than the north African Muslim powers, is Mali also lending warriors to the emirate to strengthen them?
This
The OTL fall of Granada is still over a century away. A lot will change until then. However you're right, the Andalusian court has probably the closest mindset to Mali in the Muslim World.
Next chapter will focus a little on Ouali, who also is getting old and his sons - especially Abu. In other news, the Black Death is about to roll through the ME and Europe.
SwampTiger
Banned
The Islamic World had a very good medical bag at the time. Some diseases will be too deadly to defeat, but many of these are too fast acting to become major plagues. The occurrence of diseases like ebola tend not to spread far, because the carriers die too quickly. Modern transportation tends to increase the speed of transmission outbreaks. Malaria, meningitis, diarrheal diseases, and parasites are known to the medical world of the time. Water travel will hasten the spread of outbreaks. The speed of this spread can be investigated in ancient and modern medical history.
The real problem with water borne travel is the time factor to develop an entire base of knowledge. You are showing this in your story. Indeed, the most probable cause for the destruction of the Malian expeditions of OTL would have been sheer inexperience. Any unexpected problem becomes worse due to lack of preparation and experience. Each problem builds upon itself. If enough problems build up, a simple moderate storm will scatter and destroy large numbers of ships. Fewer ships in close proximity leads to further losses as troubles increase and less assistance is available.
Note the Portuguese took from 1418 to 1444 to reach the Senegal. These were professional sailors trained in Mediterranean and north Atlantic sailing traditions.
I am interested to see the message Muktari has for Ouali.
The real problem with water borne travel is the time factor to develop an entire base of knowledge. You are showing this in your story. Indeed, the most probable cause for the destruction of the Malian expeditions of OTL would have been sheer inexperience. Any unexpected problem becomes worse due to lack of preparation and experience. Each problem builds upon itself. If enough problems build up, a simple moderate storm will scatter and destroy large numbers of ships. Fewer ships in close proximity leads to further losses as troubles increase and less assistance is available.
Note the Portuguese took from 1418 to 1444 to reach the Senegal. These were professional sailors trained in Mediterranean and north Atlantic sailing traditions.
I am interested to see the message Muktari has for Ouali.
SwampTiger
Banned
Had a thought of a TTL equivalent of the Optimist Pram for a sailing school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimist_(dinghy)
Im afraid I will have to put this on hiatus. As of right now, I am not content with my story, its assumptions and the way it is heading. Im sorry to disappoint my readers but at this point I think it is below the quality i expect from myself.
In the near future I will be back with another project. Ive leared a lot rearding fictional writing and will implement better (and more transparent) sourcing, more coherent content and better quality control. Thanks for your interest in this timeline and hopefully you will also be interested in my future TL's. Thanks.
BTW: Said future project will center around the possibility of Alaska going independent under Alexander Baranov with the intention of creating a semi-native trading nation based in Alaska.
In the near future I will be back with another project. Ive leared a lot rearding fictional writing and will implement better (and more transparent) sourcing, more coherent content and better quality control. Thanks for your interest in this timeline and hopefully you will also be interested in my future TL's. Thanks.
BTW: Said future project will center around the possibility of Alaska going independent under Alexander Baranov with the intention of creating a semi-native trading nation based in Alaska.
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Okay, So this TL has been slumbering for almost one and half years now.
I am gonna resurrect it, hopefully there still is some interest
I am gonna resurrect it, hopefully there still is some interest
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YAH! are you gonna make a new thread for it?Okay, So this TL has been slumbering for almost one and half years now.
I am gonna resurrect it, hopefully there still is some interest
Happy you still like it
I think I will stick with this one. I don't see any upside getting a new thread.
Hopefully you change the use of Arabic to Mande written in Arabic Scripture. That was my gripe about this. I have no idea why Arabic is an National Language in Mali, only Imams and religious scholars know it what with Saudi Money flowing into the country to displace the traditional Sufi rite and the Northerners Secessionists of course who are native speakers of their heavily Berber variant, but nobody counts the Northerners.
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Agreed. Also this Version must make much higher use of the Griots. This objective has great synergy with making Mande proper written language.Hopefully you change the use of Arabic to Mande written in Arabic Scripture. That was my gripe about this. I have no idea why Arabic is an National Language in Mali, only Imams and religious scholars know it what with Saudi Money flowing into the country to displace the traditional Sufi rite and the Northerners Secessionists of course who are native speakers of their heavily Berber variant, but nobody counts the Northerners.
The role of Griots can easily be absorbed into the role of Sheikhs to be honest. Like Islamic Sheikhs/storytellers (Griots) helping pass on the story of the ancestors with a little bit of revision
Andalusians escaping to the Mande and bringing naval technology - and more important - vendetta against the Christian Iberians can make a great difference. Mandean ships patrolling West Africa and not letting the Portuguese pass to South Africa would mean:
1. Richer Mamluk Egypt, and perhaps delay for Ottoman conquest of Syria and Egypt.
2. Delay in the discovery of the Americas
3. Potential for the Mandeans themselves discovering Brazil?
Still, the timeline so far is great. Earlier, West African Ibn Khaldun's state... What a great experiment.
1. Richer Mamluk Egypt, and perhaps delay for Ottoman conquest of Syria and Egypt.
2. Delay in the discovery of the Americas
3. Potential for the Mandeans themselves discovering Brazil?
Still, the timeline so far is great. Earlier, West African Ibn Khaldun's state... What a great experiment.
The Griots had quite a wide array of tasks and responsibilities, i am certainly look into that idea.
Many thanks for the complitments!
1. Actually this I had planned. Interesting butterflies for the Maghreb, as well.
2. Puh, hard question. I think you could argue in both ways. As soon as the Portuguese reach the Azores, I would say they are in on exploration. And when they find hostile Malians, maybe they have even more drive to go west than south ttl. On the other hand, their naval knowledge might be lower.
3. Given the Winds I would say that is a given once they dicover the the volta do mar.
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So. The Chapters have been been updated. Removed bogus stuff such as the Caliphal Claim and added things like the Mande Alphabet. And I still really dont like to write about war. Chapters III and IV were not my finest work I have to say.