WI: NACA Modified P-38

[thepsyborg]

Would experimenting with putting a pair of P&W R-2800 ever happen? I know they tried putting Allison's on B29's, would this be something to try for like a Navy type, since they did not like liquid cooled engines?

No. Far, far too different...well, everything. You'd need to completely redesign the nacelles, booms, wing root, horizontal stabiliser, and (probably, if the propellor centre was lowered) landing gear. It would be simpler to start completely from scratch.

 

[EverKing]

^== That pretty much sums it up. Lockheed had toyed with the idea of building a navalized version, the Model 822, but never built it and--regardless of any incredible kit-bashing you may see online--did not intend to swap out to radials, afaik.

It IS an intriguing idea but if you really consider it, something of a non-starter. I mean, if the War Production Board wouldn't allow Lockheed to make modifications needed for the larger prop spinner on the P-38K, they certainly wouldn't allow the type of modifications needed to go to a Radial.

As for the viability of such an installation ITTL, I regret to say that it will not happen. The Navy is simply not interested in the P-38, no matter what engine(s) it has. Too big and heavy for carrier operation, takes up too mich space on the flight deck, and even if they figure out how to fold the wings it will still take a lot of space on the hangar deck. Besides, they know Grumman has the F7F in the pipes--why adapt a dirty Army Plane when there is a proper Navy Plane on the way?

 

[Draconis]

And the U.S. Navy had already rejected the Grumman F5F which had showed a lot of promise. They weren't interested in twin engine carrier based planes.

 

[phx1138]

Thanks for the link, McPherson. Reading that old thread (20 years old!) makes one realize just how tired much of the P-38 improvement arguments have become, especially the idea of "dropping" Merlins into it. Throughout my efforts here I have learned a lot about the Allison and how they compare to the Merlin and the truth is, they are often unfairly underrated verses the Rolls-Royce, which has attained some sort of wundermotor status. As @tomo pauk has pointed out elsewhere, the Allison's primary failing was lack of proper two-stage supercharging. When a second induction charge stage was added it was either done by an auxiliary supercharger driven by driveshaft (P-63) or by a Turbo (P-38). The first method was adequate, but compared unfavorably to the Merlin's fully integrated and compact packaging. The latter, of course, we know well: installation was complicated and prone to pressure loss in the ducts and more susceptible to damage (larger area = more likely to be shot). All the other problems with the Allison were solved or balanced by problems with the Merlin--which are almost always overlooked in these types of discussions.

Take the oft-discussed fuel issues and lead-separation with the turbo-charged Allison. These were related more to the intercooler installation (which, let's remember, was designed with the MTO and PTO in mind where low-altitude, hot day, operation was normal) than to the engine itself and once better fuel mixing and additives were used beginning Spring '44 were all-but non-existent. Conversely, these same "better" fuels tended to play havoc with the Merlin valves and resulted in an increase in engine failures and a reduction in MTBO. Let's also not forget that the Merlins tended to be a bit more temperamental, especially the British built variants, thanks to their tight engineering tolerances where the Allison was a bit more forgiving. Plus, there is the Power:Weight. The Allisons were generally (depending on the installation) lighter per HP, certainly an advantage in an airplane.

All of that aside, people also tend to ignore that putting even the best Merlins in a P-38 wouldn't fix the Compressibility problems, which was the airplane's biggest limitation. At 30,000', the Lightning could approach its Critical Mach even in level flight. All it would take is a short, shallow, dive and it's there. I think applying a proper fix to that issue is needed before any other major changes even begin to make sense.

The Twin Mustang wasn't really designed as an interim fix for anything but to fill a very specific need which no other aircraft could do: high-altitude, very-long range, escort. It was designed to escort B-29s and B-36s round-trip on their missions and to this day still holds the Piston-engine un-refueled Hawai'i to New York (5051 mile) record at 14 hr 32 min. It was only later that they realized it wasn't really needed in that role, so they found other niches for it to fill in an interim basis, specifically as a Night-Fighter or Radar equipped all-weather interceptor. They had some success in both roles during the early stages of the Korean War until purpose built jet aircraft became available (e.g. F-94).

I'd agree with all of that. The Merlin's legendary status, well-earned to be sure, does tend to blind its supporters (& those of us less well-informed) to its flaws.

On the issue of bugs, I agree, but there are bugs that can't be foreseen & things that (IMO) just a modicum of thought could (should!) have been bypassed. Some of that is a product of wrecking the prototype for no good reason, which (IMO) is why compressibility wasn't solved until so late. (There are some evidently bad corporate decisions, like a focus on Hudsons over P-38s, in the mix, too.)

As for compressibility in level flight (which, I have to say, is a new one on me), I can only wonder how much of that is a product of how clean the P-38 was. Would she have the same fanbase otherwise? ( )

The notional Radial Lightning looks great as a kit, but it is a non-starter for an even simpler reason: it's so damn big. The space taken by 1 *F2L Sea Lightning would acommodate, what, 2 F6Fs (or 4 F8Fs? )? Not a call any USN CV admiral would find hard.

 

[marathag]

The notional Radial Lightning looks great as a kit, but it is a non-starter for an even simpler reason: it's so damn big. The space taken by 1 *F2L Sea Lightning would acommodate, what, 2 F6Fs (or 4 F8Fs? )? Not a call any USN CV admiral would find hard.

Someone seemed to be OK with it

And yes, that's a CVE

 

[sonofpegasus]

The original merlin 1 was a so-so engine. Poor head design and problems with the one piece castings. Once they got that sorted and got to what some people call the true Merlin, with the flat head, separate cast cylinder blocks et all then you have a world leading engine. As has been said by better people than me;- RR Merlin = the triumph of development over design!

 

[James Ricker]

And the U.S. Navy had already rejected the Grumman F5F which had showed a lot of promise. They weren't interested in twin engine carrier based planes.

It was the simple equation of the limited space available in the hangar deck. You have 3 F6F Hellcats with the space required for 2 F5F or 2 F7F Tiger Cats.

 

[EverKing]

Someone seemed to be OK with it

And yes, that's a CVE

Looks like they are just transporting them. I doubt they are flying them off the CVE operationally.

 

[Draconis]

Someone seemed to be OK with it

And yes, that's a CVE

Marathag are you having a little joke on the readers? Those Tigercats are being ferried. The USN or Marines never operated F7F from carriers. Not only for the size reasons already mentioned but they wouldn't qualify as safe for carrier operations.

Edit. Ninja'd by EverKing by 5 minutes.

 

[phx1138]

Looks like they are just transporting them. I doubt they are flying them off the CVE operationally.

That's my second thought. (The first was, "When is that? After jets enter service?") I get the feeling that's a ferry mission, not operational, & postwar (delivery to a surplus customer or something); that's a sunk CVE waiting to happen, to my (unpracticed) eye, otherwise. (Just don't ask why, I couldn't tell you.)

 

[marathag]

That's my second thought. (The first was, "When is that? After jets enter service?") I get the feeling that's a ferry mission, not operational, & postwar (delivery to a surplus customer or something); that's a sunk CVE waiting to happen, to my (unpracticed) eye, otherwise. (Just don't ask why, I couldn't tell you.)

Yes, that was USS Windham Bay, pretty much exclusively ran for Military Sea Transportation Service duties, running aircraft back and forth across the Pacific since 1946

Also this

after the Korean War

and USS Card, in the '60s

.

Back to the F7F
After trials on Shangri-La in 1946, they figured out why the Wings were breaking off on hard landings, but the production contract with Douglas for the XF3D Jet Night fighter was approved two months later

 

[phx1138]

Yes, that was USS Windham Bay, pretty much exclusively ran for Military Sea Transportation Service duties, running aircraft back and forth across the Pacific since 1946

Also this

after the Korean War

and USS Card, in the '60s

.

Like the pix. Thx.

why the Wings were breaking off on hard landings

And we're back to how something like that didn't get noticed before acceptance. closedtongue: )

 

[marathag]

And we're back to how something like that didn't get noticed before acceptance. closedtongue: )

And that was on the -3 model. I think the Wiki has the story, the Pilot had enough pull to keep the crews from shoving it over the side after the landing, and yes, Grumman found something

 

[EverKing]

I really wish I could justify the Model 822 navalized P-38 / Torpedo carrier. Maybe I'll have to add it in a more wanky and playful TL (maybe that ASB/ISOT TL we've discussed). Right now, it would really be fun to use it.

 

[Shadow Knight]

I really wish I could justify the Model 822 navalized P-38 / Torpedo carrier. Maybe I'll have to add it in a more wanky and playful TL (maybe that ASB/ISOT TL we've discussed). Right now, it would really be fun to use it.

I had started typing out on my last work trip a rough outline for a TL about an aeronautical engineering master student called 'E. King' who was time traveled back to the early 1930s. His master's thesis was making the best damn P-38 he could using technology from no further than the late 1940s. It ended with the guy disappearing again but naval P-38s stationed on Wake Is. having a grand ol' time. Sadly my work computer went belly up during a bad patch cycle and lost the outline. :|

 

[EverKing]

I had started typing out on my last work trip a rough outline for a TL about an aeronautical engineering master student called 'E. King' who was time traveled back to the early 1930s. His master's thesis was making the best damn P-38 he could using technology from no further than the late 1940s. It ended with the guy disappearing again but naval P-38s stationed on Wake Is. having a grand ol' time. Sadly my work computer went belly up during a bad patch cycle and lost the outline. :|

Ha! I Love it! You have my full support to run with it should you fancy starting over. Feel free to use whatever name you like, it hardly matters as my RL family have always just called me "E" anyway.

A squadron of torpedo and bomb laden P-38s with unladen escorts, all flying from Wake, would be one helluva surprise to the Japanese fleet.

 

[Draconis]

I had started typing out on my last work trip a rough outline for a TL about an aeronautical engineering master student called 'E. King' who was time traveled back to the early 1930s. His master's thesis was making the best damn P-38 he could using technology from no further than the late 1940s. It ended with the guy disappearing again but naval P-38s stationed on Wake Is. having a grand ol' time. Sadly my work computer went belly up during a bad patch cycle and lost the outline. :|

The time cops intervened.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Ha! I Love it! You have my full support to run with it should you fancy starting over. Feel free to use whatever name you like, it hardly matters as my RL family have always just called me "E" anyway.

A squadron of torpedo and bomb laden P-38s with unladen escorts, all flying from Wake, would be one helluva surprise to the Japanese fleet.

I'll see if I can restart it on my next trip. That's the only time when I am usually free enough to be able to sit and write.

That's kind of why I asked for the list of updates post you did to be threadmarked.

The time cops intervened.

Ha! Maybe. ;-)

 

[EverKing]

I'll see if I can restart it on my next trip. That's the only time when I am usually free enough to be able to sit and write.

That's kind of why I asked for the list of updates post you did to be threadmarked.

I know the feeling. Sometimes it seems like my breaks and downtime at work are the only writing time I get, although I do try to squeeze in some late nights after the rest of the family is to bed.

Speaking of Threadmarks outside of the narrative, I have finally threadmarked the Diagram of the Modified Fuel System, which I've been meaning to do for a long, long, time but kept forgetting.

 

[EverKing]

Does anyone know the Call Signs for any of the Navy groups in the Philippines other than the Taffys? Specifically, is there any information regarding the designation of the 3rd Fleet Air Wings (e.g. 38.4)? Or is everyone OK if I just make it up?

EDIT: OK, I still don't have specifics but in the official narratives 3rd Fleet assets are referred to as BLUE so I'm using that as a general catch-all.