Twilight of the Red Tsar

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I believe that the US was mostly unaffected Chinese refugee crisis on her territories. The main routes for Chinese refugees were Southeast Asia, Korea, Japan, Hong Kong and Macau.
My response was aimed at the discussion about Asian/Jewish American superheroes.
 
Unrelated Side Note: With the purging of so many officials like Molotov, Kaganovich, etc. a lot of things from their personal accounts on things in the Soviet government will never be known to the public since they would never give out memoirs of their life or thoughts like the book "Molotov Remembers" will never exist in TTL so alot more speculation will be used I think.

And speciality with Kruschev and Brezhnev AH author would has practically free hands when anyone wouldn't know exactly their ideas and how they would lead USSR.
 
And speciality with Kruschev and Brezhnev AH author would has practically free hands when anyone wouldn't know exactly their ideas and how they would lead USSR.
I think future AH won't be kind to Khrushchev, if he ever would be recognized. As he never had a chance to come in power, the only things he will be remembered are his fervent participation in Stalinist purges and anti-Semitic proclamations during the early stages of Soviet Holocaust.
 
I think future AH won't be kind to Khrushchev, if he ever would be recognized. As he never had a chance to come in power, the only things he will be remembered are his fervent participation in Stalinist purges and anti-Semitic proclamations during the early stages of Soviet Holocaust.

Not to mention his extremely disgraceful downfall.

But the indication I get is that no one, save for the fervent anti-Semites of Soviet society, was at all happy about the Soviet Holocaust, considering how it immediately stopped after the Holocaust.

But frankly, ITTL, every major Russian political figure since 1917 has been some kind of awful, so TLs will not be particularly kind to that period as a whole.
 
On the bright side though, it appears with no Vietnam War, the Khmer Rouge's rule in Cambodia will be averted, the Khmer Rouge could possibly still exist but mostly as an underground guerilla movement. The communist regimes in Ethiopia, Mozambique, Angola, and Somalia will most likely be averted as Communism is discredited, they might become radicalized Syndicalists though since in one update, it mentions Syndicalism taking shape in Africa from Gbenye, and some people could probably use it for malevolent gains, for example in the update "The Rest" it mentions:

"Gbenye argued that the primary goal of an agrarian society should be to get industrialized, and that the most efficient way to do so was central planning. Thus, he advocated for a committee, selected by the congress of trade unions, whose job would be to organize the industrialization. Unlike other committees this one would have real power, being able to set things such as the goals for industrial output, set up factories, and move encourage the movement of workers from rural areas to the cities to staff these factories."

Seems pretty clear but I think this can be twisted by men like idk Idi Amin, Mariam, etc. to slightly change this into becoming something like forcing people out of farms into cities to build factories in slave labor with oppressive committees giving unrealistic quotas to industrialize quickly to catch up and rival the west. Though the update mentions a Syndicalist wave in the 1970s with no foreshadowing of bad things but who knows.

Unrelated Side Note: With the purging of so many officials like Molotov, Kaganovich, etc. a lot of things from their personal accounts on things in the Soviet government will never be known to the public since they would never give out memoirs of their life or thoughts like the book "Molotov Remembers" will never exist in TTL so alot more speculation will be used I think.

Well, North Vietnam is dealing with the flood of Chinese fleeing in waves (And burning down the Soviet embassy.) and the South is under that idiot rule Diệm. Even without the OTL Vietnam War, and the chaos up north, I doubt it can survive. South Vietnam was a failed state from the get go. At best, that nation got Diệm: A highly corrupt autocracy which alienated the public, filled the ranks of government and the military with frequently ineffective yes men, and was failing the win the war. After him, a revolving door of coups and juntas that ran everything into the ground.

If anything, I can see a syndicalism movement take root in the South, and we can see what happens next.

We won't have any Somali Democratic Republic, no Ogaden War. OTL figures can become Syndicalist, but Cuba has it own issues TTL so it might be able to have it share of Cuban interventions (The Cubans were pretty instrumental in many communist revolutions and wars in OTL, its honestly kinda weird how the Cubans were often fighting in far-away places.) , and Hungary has promise the West not to try and spend syndicalism. (At least not in Europe.) Of course, they can get backing from India. (The Third World is mention to be Anti-American and Anti-West over stuff like the Suez War that saw Egypt become a state running out people to murder, and Nixon's screw up over Cuba.)

India has taken Goa (No one Portugal could hold it.) and as far as we know, done well. It can be the leader of the Third World given everyone else is dead, insane, or close to the West.

Much of the USSR history and leaders within it will be a bit of a unknown given Stalin just purge almost everyone before they could be known, and those we know are mostly Stalin puppets, even from beyond the grave.
 
On the bright side though, it appears with no Vietnam War, the Khmer Rouge's rule in Cambodia will be averted
I wonder if Norodom Sihanouk would be able to continue his rule. From what I can gleam from Wikipedia and some more, it does seem like he and his fellow royalists were more pragmatists than anything (an important quality in this world) and his rule being rather liberal and enlightened--though his eagreness for reform ultimately led to his downfall. Might he be a less incompetent Reza Shah?
 
. The idea of no Sino-Soviet War is probably ASB to the inhabitants of this timeline.

I wonder which other things are impossible to not imagine IOTL but actually not that improbable. A Nazi Germany without the Holocaust and just extreme racim?


I wonder how ITTL Social Justice of late 2010 would look. I imagine that Syndicalists and Moderate Libertarians (Pro Healthcare but still don't like economic goverment control at all) would be in internal conflict. Syndicalists would likely take the place of modern pacifist socialists.

The non syndicalists (including non syndy leftists) would likely point to some third world Syndicalist dictatorship to discredit the ideology. Idi Amin, Syndicalist Dictator?

I see Chavez and Velazco (earlier Peruvian dictator) choosing it totally, they were just like Castro, Nationalists that Choose Leftism. In the case of Velazco even more, given that he explicitly rejected the URSS, being more of less Castro ITTL
 
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I wonder which other things are impossible to not imagine IOTL but actually not that improbable. A Nazi Germany without the Holocaust and just extreme racim?


I wonder how ITTL Social Justice of late 2010 would look. I imagine that Syndicalists and Moderate Libertarians (Pro Healthcare but still don't like economic goverment control at all) would be in internal conflict. Syndicalists would likely take the place of modern pacifist socialists.

The non syndicalists (including non syndy leftists) would likely point to some third world Syndicalist dictatorship to discredit the ideology. Idi Amin, Syndicalist Dictator?

I see Chavez and Velazco (earlier Peruvian dictator) choosing it totally, they were just like Castro, Nationalists that Choose Leftism. In the case of Velazco even more, given that he explicitly rejected the URSS, being more of less Castro ITTL

Surely peaceful dissolution would be seen totally ASB ITTL.

There might be several syndicalist parties in many countries. And this might have too big influence to Salvador Allende. At least Pinochet's military dictatorship is probably butterflied away.
 
Many dictatorships likely got butterfly.

By 2018 ITTL, how many dictatorships are left?

This might go to quiet many direction. Beside some Syndicalist states probably China and some other Asian countries might be if not totally dictatorships, at least quiet authotarian. Probably in Africa is some dictatorships too altough not so many as in OTL. Egypt might still be Islamic state. And pretty surely Gaddafi's and Assad's regimes are butteflied away but it not mean that Libya and Syria would be very democratic. Iran too might be somehow democratic.
 
I've thought long and hard about WWII might be celebrated in Russia ITTL. I think, if a rational government takes control of Russia ITTL, then it might not be so celebrated.

The post-CNS government will do everything in their power to discredit Stalin, and they may do this by pointing out the not-so-triumphant parts of the Second World War.

One way to do that: Molotov-Ribbentrop. OTL, Russians see World War II as a great triumph, a time when they fought back against a great evil, and helped wipe fascism from the face of the Earth. But this obscures the fact that at one time, Stalin was perfectly willing to work with the Nazis (previous posts indicated that the brief Nazi-Soviet détente will be emphasized), selling them oil, and working with them to take control of Eastern Europe.

I imagine that the CNS will also emphasize Stalin's military mismanagement: how purging his military, wasting resources fighting Finland, and his willingness to ignore numerous intelligence left Soviet Russia vulnerable to the Hitler's invasion. So vulnerable that twenty million people died.

They might also emphasize how the Soviets frequently sabotaged the Allies for their own gain, like not doing more to help with the Warsaw Uprising.

And finally, there is their post-war occupation Europe. There is the Soviet pogrom, which discredits the idea that the Soviets liberated anything, but then there was oppressing the workers and peasants of Eastern Europe so badly, they revolted militarily to get out from under the thumb of the Kremlin.

ITTL Russian students will not learn about how their ancestors fought heroically to resist the Nazi horde, but how a vicious idiot from Georgia helped that Nazi menace grow stronger, weakened his army with purges and mismanagement, ignored that very threat to the peril of millions of Soviets, sabotaged his allies for personal gain, and then proceeded to throw the goodwill of victory down the drain by being an oppressive, backstabbing douche. Underneath the victory of Soviet Russia, there is a good deal of shame and stupidity behind it.
 
I've thought long and hard about WWII might be celebrated in Russia ITTL. I think, if a rational government takes control of Russia ITTL, then it might not be so celebrated.

The post-CNS government will do everything in their power to discredit Stalin, and they may do this by pointing out the not-so-triumphant parts of the Second World War.

One way to do that: Molotov-Ribbentrop. OTL, Russians see World War II as a great triumph, a time when they fought back against a great evil, and helped wipe fascism from the face of the Earth. But this obscures the fact that at one time, Stalin was perfectly willing to work with the Nazis (previous posts indicated that the brief Nazi-Soviet détente will be emphasized), selling them oil, and working with them to take control of Eastern Europe.

I imagine that the CNS will also emphasize Stalin's military mismanagement: how purging his military, wasting resources fighting Finland, and his willingness to ignore numerous intelligence left Soviet Russia vulnerable to the Hitler's invasion. So vulnerable that twenty million people died.

They might also emphasize how the Soviets frequently sabotaged the Allies for their own gain, like not doing more to help with the Warsaw Uprising.

And finally, there is their post-war occupation Europe. There is the Soviet pogrom, which discredits the idea that the Soviets liberated anything, but then there was oppressing the workers and peasants of Eastern Europe so badly, they revolted militarily to get out from under the thumb of the Kremlin.

ITTL Russian students will not learn about how their ancestors fought heroically to resist the Nazi horde, but how a vicious idiot from Georgia helped that Nazi menace grow stronger, weakened his army with purges and mismanagement, ignored that very threat to the peril of millions of Soviets, sabotaged his allies for personal gain, and then proceeded to throw the goodwill of victory down the drain by being an oppressive, backstabbing douche. Underneath the victory of Soviet Russia, there is a good deal of shame and stupidity behind it.
I doubt it. Pointing out the mistakes of the Soviet Union and its leader during the years preceding 1941 probably would get placed in the official history curriculum, obviously, but I'm willing to bet that plenty of teachers will throw that out in their lessons to instead focus on the war itself and the struggle of the Russian people against the German invasion - maybe without emphasizing Stalin's role during the defense, but certainly not degrading the impact of the war and the triumph achieved in the end.

Whatever way you slice it, the Great Patriotic War is the defining moment of modern Russian national identity and the Nazi regime was just as terrible as TTL Stalin. That's not going to change simply because a mass murderer ruled for seven more years.
 
Is going to change, said Muss Murderer did commit crimes just as heinous if not more. Stalin moved from Regional Theat to World Wide Monster with the Chinese Inferno (there any name for it? There no other way to call it than Genocide IMO)

They likely would try to downplay the Soviet rulers and emphasize the people. Sure, the Sino Russian War made it hard, but I think is possible to point the many Red Army officers that got purged before it.
 
I doubt it. Pointing out the mistakes of the Soviet Union and its leader during the years preceding 1941 probably would get placed in the official history curriculum, obviously, but I'm willing to bet that plenty of teachers will throw that out in their lessons to instead focus on the war itself and the struggle of the Russian people against the German invasion - maybe without emphasizing Stalin's role during the defense, but certainly not degrading the impact of the war and the triumph achieved in the end.

Whatever way you slice it, the Great Patriotic War is the defining moment of modern Russian national identity and the Nazi regime was just as terrible as TTL Stalin. That's not going to change simply because a mass murderer ruled for seven more years.

Yes, but there is the unfortunate fact of repeating the crimes of your opponent, which puts the whole resistance thing under a harsher light.

And lets not forget that Patriotic War has been overshadowed by two, less fun conflicts, the Sino-Soviet War and the Second Russian Civil War.

The Sino-Soviet War was the Soviets going apeshit on their own ally for no reason than stupid pride and paranoia.

The Second Russian Civil War saw nukes being lobbed like fireworks, and millions of Russians displaced.

The fight against the Nazis has been replaced with a fight to the death against fellow Russians.

Is going to change, said Muss Murderer did commit crimes just as heinous if not more.

They likely would try to downplay the Soviet rulers and emphasize the people. Sure, the Sino Russian War made it hard, but I think is possible to point the many Red Army officers that got purged before it.

Precisely my point. But those very people who resisted the Nazis would come to denounce their own Jewish neighbors as "Zionist wreckers." So...
 
You can point to a very basic fact. There no "perfect victim".

One can commit a crime...and be the victim of another one. That the Soviets commited genocide don't means that they didn't bravely defend themselves during The Patriotic War.

ITTL, the Two Burundian Genocides happened. That the Tutsi killed Hutus in 1972 didn't meant that the 1993 killings from Hutus to Tutsi were fine.

Also. My bad, I forgot the Russian Civil War. I am pretty fascinated for the Sino Soviet War.
 
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Yes, but there is the unfortunate fact of repeating the crimes of your opponent, which puts the whole resistance thing under a harsher light.

And lets not forget that Patriotic War has been overshadowed by two, less fun conflicts, the Sino-Soviet War and the Second Russian Civil War.

The Sino-Soviet War was the Soviets going apeshit on their own ally for no reason than stupid pride and paranoia.

The Second Russian Civil War saw nukes being lobbed like fireworks, and millions of Russians displaced.

The fight against the Nazis has been replaced with a fight to the death against fellow Russians.
So what?

This is not a question of logic, this is a question of patriotism.

If anything, the Russians would even refer to the Great Patriotic more that OTL - "look, back then we were united as one and fought against a genocidal foe! Sure, Stalin was terrible and the Union went down in flames, but that was a moment when we were the heroes!"
 
And right after it, someone can say

"And we saved the jews to kill them right after it, we raped Concetration Camp suvivors. And we already have starved Ukranians and many Native groups to death, like ten years early". We were Brainiac fighting Darkseid or any supervillain vs Supervillain fight". We basically went our to find different ways to kill the Chinese"
 
And right after it, someone can say

"And we saved the jews to kill them right after it, we raped Concetration Camp suvivors. And we already have starved Ukranians and many Native groups to death, like ten years early". We were Brainiac fighting Darkseid or any supervillain vs Supervillain fight". We basically went our to find different ways to kill the Chinese"

And then,

"We proceeded to bomb the Poles and Hungarians, and destroyed Warsaw again, without Stalin breathing down our neck".

And then we proceeded to nuke and kill each other.
 
Russians (and many former Soviet nations) would have to either blame their leaders for everything or try to feel pride on Ancient Russian Culture, anything if they want to keep a sense of national unity without falling to a new authoritarian regime.
 
Russians (and many former Soviet nations) would have to either blame their leaders for everything or try to feel pride on Ancient Russian Culture, anything if they want to keep a sense of national unity without falling to a new authoritarian regime.

And that great "Russian pride" also has such wonderful things like ethnic cleansing, pogroms, and the oppression of serfs.
 
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