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Well, I don't know how well it would fly.
The main reason why the KMT was pushed off of the mainland in 1949 was because they had been so thoroughly devastated by Japan's brutality.
Twilight of the Red Tsar
- Thread starter Napoleon IV
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Well, I don't know how well it would fly.
The main reason why the KMT was pushed off of the mainland in 1949 was because they had been so thoroughly devastated by Japan's brutality.
Actually, they were pushed off by the Soviet-backed CCP, under Mao, the Chinese Quisling.
Which wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been scared shitless of a China that seemed impotent in the face of Soviet manipulations and- man, they could go on and on with this, couldn't they?
That, and Chiang was peanut head, and the sheer amount of incompetence and corruption of the KMT, and caring little for China's vast population of peasants and rather supporting the rich landlords, and many of the KMT was drafted against their will to fight Mao and poorly trained and the KMT armies where indpedent of each other. Oh, and the fact starting the civil war against in 1946 screwed up China's reconstruction and recovery from the war.
I could go on, but the Reds had aces against the KMT and that idiot Chiang. What saved him was Zhang Xueliang forcing him to the Second United Front. If not that, Chiang would have run the Nationalists into the ground trying to fight and kill the Communists and Capitalists and Westerns he could find while killing millions and millions of Chinese to do it and not the Japanese.
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chankljp
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You are thinking about the 1938 Yellow River flood:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood
I think that even after the KMT democratise in a way similar to OTL Taiwan under Chiang Ching Kuo, the flood will be remembered in official Chinese textbooks along the lines of 'War is horrible, and sometimes leaders must make horrible decisions in order for the nation to survive'.
If anything, I think the 1938 flood will be used by the government to justify it's military spending, nuclear arsenal, and/or policy of conscription, since the official line will be that China must be prepared for war at all times, or else you risk another Eight Year War of Resistance or Sino-Soviet War, with all the national suffering and misery that those conflict caused.
Well, that's one way of justifying Chiang's and the KMT idiotically even in the Red Tsar verse.
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chankljp
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As the saying goes, 'History is written by the winners'. And in the Red Tsar-verse, Chang and the KMT are most certainly the 'winners' of China. With mainstream, official history remembering them Chang as the 'Great unifier', and the KMT for keeping the flames of the Chinese nation alive in Taiwan, while the Mainland was ravaged by all the wars that Mao dragged the country into.
Of course, once the country democratised (Assuming that it does, since in OTL, the reason that the KMT was forced to do so was because the US recognising the PRC, hence forcing them to find another way to give themselves legitimacy), alternative views from other historians will be published, with calls for maybe even the textbooks to be changed... But I don't think this will happen until at lease the 1990s-2000s.
It says a lot that even despite all of this, I still have some strong sympathy for Chiang. Because at this point, not having a bodycount of millions is a virtue.
I really didn't thought that China could get more pitiable than OTL. I was wrong. Though, I still hope the best for them.
I still wonder how Fiction is influenced for the Stalinist madness. Anime and Comics especially.
I really didn't thought that China could get more pitiable than OTL. I was wrong. Though, I still hope the best for them.
I still wonder how Fiction is influenced for the Stalinist madness. Anime and Comics especially.
...He does. Chiang is at least partially responsible for between 6 and 18.5 million deaths during the Civil War and the Second Sino-Japanese War. (The 1938 Yellow River flood among them.)
Oh. I forgot about that. I really need to study chinese story.
Thought it says a lot that we're dealing with guys with more than 10 millions and the guy with the exact 10 millions come sympathetic by comparation.
China is really used to massive episodes of mass killings OTL or is just a orientalist stereotype now that I think about it.
I mean, Chiang, Tojo, Mao and now Stalin ITTL...poor China.
Thought it says a lot that we're dealing with guys with more than 10 millions and the guy with the exact 10 millions come sympathetic by comparation.
China is really used to massive episodes of mass killings OTL or is just a orientalist stereotype now that I think about it.
I mean, Chiang, Tojo, Mao and now Stalin ITTL...poor China.
I suppose most countries have been subject to mass killings--it's just that China has always had a larger population base to kill.
At least with the Nationalists in power, there'd be hope of them eventually democratizing ala South Korea or the OTL Republic of China on Taiwan.
Doubtful, I'd think. Taiwan democratised not out of the kind hearts of the KMT, but because of mounting discontent amongst intellectuals and the fading hope of unifying China under the KMT's banner. If Chiang reconquered mainland China, he and his descendents would likely be more able and willing to crack down on opposition outside the KMT, nor would there be too much incentive to cultivate a strong middle class any time soon.
It’s still a lighter shade of grey than the people who irreparably damaged Chinese cultural history and killed tens of millions in a failed industrial program.
A lighter shade of grey, certainly. But far from democratization--a newly ascendent KMT isn't going to give votes to areas that are under reconstruction from 2 decades of anarchy with a capital A.
Doesn’t mean it’ll stay that way forever. Even giving the vote to a relatively small privileged region at first could eventually snowball into full democracy. Doesn’t mean that I think that the process would be quick or easy. Just because the timeline was in a dark place doesn’t mean it’ll be dark until the end of time.
When those decades are over, the KMT is going to be way different. I wonder how they would react to having to trade with a Weaponized Japan, I see lost of Chinese traders having PSTD triggers when contacting with Japaneses.
Chiang, Tojo, Mao and Now Stalin...China can't rest.
Chiang, Tojo, Mao and Now Stalin...China can't rest.
Could it end to be more democratic than the PRC, but less than Taiwan?
It would be interesting to know how would Tibetan, Uyghur and Mongol autonomists be treated.
As for now (1970), Tibet is independent and Xinjiang is under the Soviet control. I assume if RoC will try to rejoin both of the regions, they won't be met friendly.
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