The Great Turk returns - Alternate resurging Ottomans (1747-1947)

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So if pedro had a little bit of a different personality or a better childhood coulf brazil do even better?

Could spain have commonwealthed the american empire and make them into dominions? I see this brought up alot people saying close to the end of spanish empire mainland america was becoming more like a commonwealth?


Well hats off to them so what would happen if spain sent proper troops to reinforce the viceroys how did spain in the end lose its empire not even retain the monarchy in these states?

Yeah, Brazil could definitely do better.

A commonwealth is certainly possible. Just give the colonists equality with peninsulares, allow them to manage their own affairs, enact social and political reforms and they will be pretty happy to continue their allegiance to the king. Spain is probably not willing to do any of these though.

Spain did reconquer most of their colonies by sending reinforcement. Napoleon withdrew after 1814, the revolutions continued until 1824. True, there weren't as many reinforcement and resources as the Viceroys wanted, but by that time the colonists had all united against Spain. Spain could win military at first, but if it doesn't reform and accept the equality of the colonies, the revolutionaries would eventually rise again and win at the end. And everything would just be worse for everyone.
 
@Red_Galiray True so militarily what would it take south america to stand up to the USA or to defeat them? Lets say if Mexico and gran Colombia form an alliance and split central america between them could this alliance defeat the Americans in war like the Mexican american war. Also except for Brazil as you have stated was powerful what European nation would be best to help the latin american nations advance and develop military etc? As you can see this is a ottoman timeline i doubt the ottomans would want to help south america, the timeline has reached France entering revolutionary phase so who would be good to help?

So Spain could hold on to the american lands but they were simply unwilling to reform.

BTW you are south american so in your view is their two american continents or one?
 
@Red_Galiray True so militarily what would it take south america to stand up to the USA or to defeat them? Lets say if Mexico and gran Colombia form an alliance and split central america between them could this alliance defeat the Americans in war like the Mexican american war. Also except for Brazil as you have stated was powerful what European nation would be best to help the latin american nations advance and develop military etc? As you can see this is a ottoman timeline i doubt the ottomans would want to help south america, the timeline has reached France entering revolutionary phase so who would be good to help?

So Spain could hold on to the american lands but they were simply unwilling to reform.

BTW you are south american so in your view is their two american continents or one?

France is probably your best bet for helping Latin America catch up, especially because it has Empire building dreams and can appeal to Latin America's catholicism and portrait the Anglos as their common enemy. Stable, united Mexico and Colombia can successfully resist military, but lose the economic conquest. The USA is simply too OP in that regard. But, they can defeat the US by breaking the will of their people to continue fighting. But the best outcome is minor concessions in Mexico's favor.

Yeah, unwilling to reform and modernize.

Most people here see the entire Americas as just one big continent.
 
Note: I do not know whether advertising is ok, as I am new here.
Please don't do that. It is not very nice thing to do, especially for something have nothing to do with the tl and out of nowhere too.

Edit: the post already been removed
 
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Facinating timeline. At first I had trouble getting into it becuase my lack of knowledge regarding the 18 century Ottomans, but now this could posible be candidate to be my favorite timeline on this site. It's refreshing to see the Ottomans doing realistically well on a site that loves to overexploit their downfall, even going as far as ethnically cleasing the turks from thrace and Istanbul and eastern anatolia.
Can't wait for you to continue, althoght I will because I don't want to rush you, you are doing great, take all the time you need. ;)
 
Question about Yugoslav ethnicity: how much is it based on religion? I think Koprulu said circa 75% would be Muslim - would all these people think of themselves as part of the same ethnic group?

I think Koprulu said Muslims (muhajirs) would migrate to the region. It would be neat to find out what kind of culture/ethnicity they would develop. Koprulu, when RL lets you, it would be great to hear how the Balkans develop culturally in this TL.
 
As an outsider, it seems to me that there are five Yugoslav ethnicities: Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Macedonian. Slovenian and Macedonian are separate ethnicities because they speak separate languages; while Croatians, Bosnians, and Serbians speak the same language but are separated by religion. Croatians are Catholic, Bosnians are Muslim, while Serbians are Orthodox.

I'd argue that Macedonian ethnicity is largely constructed as separate from Bulgarian ethnicity by the Serbian-Yugoslav government but that is controversial.
 
Question about Yugoslav ethnicity: how much is it based on religion? I think Koprulu said circa 75% would be Muslim - would all these people think of themselves as part of the same ethnic group?

I think Koprulu said Muslims (muhajirs) would migrate to the region. It would be neat to find out what kind of culture/ethnicity they would develop. Koprulu, when RL lets you, it would be great to hear how the Balkans develop culturally in this TL.

Now now... 75%? Maybe in Albania, Eastern Bulgaria and Bosnia. But to get 75% Islamic in a 90% Christian early Serbia is hard. Especially starting from the 18th century. The Balkans overall may be between 45-66% Islamic by 1900. So... 56% maybe? We'll see...

Migration from the Middle East to the Caucasus, Crimea and Balkans will happen. Not too much now. But the 19th century will see Christians migrating to the New World. To halt the depopulation of those lands migrants need to come. And it won't be just Muslims. Armenians as well will migrate to different parts of the Balkans.

Religion based on Yugoslav ethnicity. There is no real ethnic labels yet. But it will develop during the 19th century. Mostly to counter the others.
 
As an outsider, it seems to me that there are five Yugoslav ethnicities: Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Macedonian. Slovenian and Macedonian are separate ethnicities because they speak separate languages; while Croatians, Bosnians, and Serbians speak the same language but are separated by religion. Croatians are Catholic, Bosnians are Muslim, while Serbians are Orthodox.

I'd argue that Macedonian ethnicity is largely constructed as separate from Bulgarian ethnicity by the Serbian-Yugoslav government but that is controversial.

That may be. Personally I think that religion played the biggest role in dividing the people. Serbian was almost entirely Orthodox Christian identity by 1830. Croatian was Catholic ever since 1699. The Bosnian identity may have come up as a response to not get absorbed by Serbs or Croats (no Croat or Serb Muslims but Bosnians). Keeping their privileges within the Ottoman Empire and later in Austria-Hungary.
 
That may be. Personally I think that religion played the biggest role in dividing the people. Serbian was almost entirely Orthodox Christian identity by 1830. Croatian was Catholic ever since 1699. The Bosnian identity may have come up as a response to not get absorbed by Serbs or Croats (no Croat or Serb Muslims but Bosnians). Keeping their privileges within the Ottoman Empire and later in Austria-Hungary.

Yeah, when building a national identity, most time is easier to define who you aren't then who you are.
 
Regarding the Balkans, how would this TL Ottoman Empire rule the Christian elements in the region? I'd imagined similar treatment to Greek Orthodox Christians.

Tho' one must watch out for European support of independence movements within the potentially rebellious portions in the Ottoman Empire.
 
Yeah, when building a national identity, most time is easier to define who you aren't then who you are.

Or have it defined for you. Many cultural-identity groups either consolidate or break off against their own internal complexities/divisions or desires because a more socially empowered part of society starts seeing them all as "other" and so falls victim to the mental shortcut of treating them as both seperate from themselves and homogeneous (For example, this is how you got a unified African-American identity, and how the Americans developed an identity seperate from that of Englishmen).
 
Dom Pedro is not really the man for creating a superpower. I think you would need a more assertive emperor
An assertive emperor will get deposed by the local landowning elites for getting up on their business.
Pedro the second spent his whole life playing different factions of latifundia owners against each other to give the nation a minimal resemblance of internal order, but in the end the real power was in the hands of the landowners.
 
Murad V
The great mission in the east - 1792

The 18th century has seen Christian missionaries spreading their faith among believers of the other faiths. The missions of these Christians were also among the Christians in the Ottoman Empire. In this case Muslims were avoided to prevent angering the local clergy. However, several Sufi Orders had seen the activity of these missionaries among local Christians and were inspired. Something the Orders were doing centuries ago has now declined. As early as the 1780s several Sufi Orders were talking about the possibility to spread the Islamic faith among the non-Muslims in Central Asia and the Caucasus. This became even more popular among the Orders after the Sultan prevented the Missionary Activity to spread in the Balkan, leaving it to the Janissary Corps only. After the idea dying out for 20 years it once again gained popularity among the Sufi Orders. This time the region of interest was the Caucasus and Central Asia. Supported by Sultan Abdulhamid I and later Murad V, the Orders have set out from Istanbul to Erzurum and from there their paths have been divided. Some of them set out for the Caucasus and especially among the Georgians and Ossetians. The others left for the Lands of the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Uyghurs. The Sufi’s leaving for Central Asia were not only going to strengthen the Islamic faith among the steppe nomads, countering the Russian Orthodox. It was also to restore the ties between cities like Samarkand and Bukhara with Istanbul and the rest of the Middle East. The stronger the ties the stronger the Islamic Faith gets was their motivation. The travel to Central Asia however was problematic. Mohammed II had died in early 1792 and his younger yet ill brother Abbas IV succeeded him. The situation in Persia was tense and it looked like a succession war could start any moment with the oldest son of Mohammed II, Suleiman going for it. Other than the tense political situation, the problems the local Shia Clergy had with the Sufi’s heading for Baku to travel to Central Asia, the Georgian Outlaws hunting under Solomon of Kutaisi hunting on Muslim Pilgrims were a huge problem. The Pasha of Tiflis, Cerkes Suleiman Pasha, made several attempts to hunt down the bandits but failed as the bandits are too mobile to be caught by an expedition force and nobody knows where they are. In the 1790s, 1 in the 3 Sufi’s heading from Erzurum died during their travel of which three quarter of them by the Georgian Bandits. As far as the Order was concerned death did not scare them. Many left for their destination regardless. Other than going for Central Asia and the Caucasus, there were new Madrassa’s opened in the Crimea and the Caucasus to educate the locals and train new men to send them over to Central Asia.


The Firman of Murad V - 1792

Murad V saw the threat of the autonomy the Pasha’s on the edge had during his military campaign. Kara Ali Pasha had complained about the issue as well due to the threat of breaking away and being used by foreign powers. When Ali Pasha Tependeli acted like a King during the stay of Murad in Macedonia Murad was irritated. Telling the situation to Abdulhamid I did not really help as the old Sultan was ill and thought a simple warning would be okay. A rebellion during wartime was the last thing Abdulhamid wanted. When Abdulhamid I died Murad V declared several rights to be taken away from various Pashaluks and the power of the Pasha’s being reduced. This of course did not apply to all Pasha’s. Egypt and Baghdad Vilayets kept most of their autonomy the Sultans before Murad V granted them but Murad would accept no more autonomy in any part of his realm than the one in Istanbul. Russia being defeated helped the Ottoman Emperor gaining prestige and a safeguard on the frontiers. In order to quell rebellions Murad needed the support of the Crimean Khan. The Khan of the Crimea, Sahin Giray, declared all kind of support ready in case Murad needs it. The rights being taken away:

  • The ruling Pasha will be appointed by the Emperor or Grand Vizier. Hereditary is not possible
  • Taxation percentage will be as the Grand Vizier orders, no more no less
  • The regional forces of the Pasha’s can not be more than 8,000 men
  • The Pasha’s can not remain longer than 15 years in position unless the Emperor orders so
  • The Pasha’s can not rule the Pashaluks from which they are from. This only counts for the successors after the last Firman
  • The Pasha’s are not allowed to correspond or talk with foreign rulers, ambassadors unless the Emperor orders so
  • The Grand Vizier has the only right to give orders on the Janissaries unless the Grand Vizier gives the Pasha’s below them the rights
  • Taxation can not be more than 37,5% of the total income of the population. Taxation will be 25% of the income of the people after this Firman
  • The Janissary Corps is no longer hereditary
  • The Janissary Corps will only accept new recruits from the ages 8 to 18
  • Janissaries will retire by the age of 50. They will get some land to get income from their retirement
  • The Ayans will have no more armed militia than 150 men a maximum
  • The Pasha’s will accept the new Garrisons settled by the Grand Viziers on the Frontier Pashaluks

The Firman of Murad V was not well taken. Most of the Army was still on the frontiers ready for the return. When the Firman reached the Pasha’s none were happy and the recently appointed Sancak Beyi of Vidin, Pazvantoğlu Osman Pasha revolted against Murad V in 1793 after being Sancak Beyi for only a few months. Supported by Bulgarian, Serbian and Turkish bandits and rebellious Janissaries Osman Pasha occupied Vidin and attacked nearby towns continuing his bandit lifestyle. In order to enforce the law, Murad V appointed the landlord of Ruscuk, Alemdar Mustafa, as the Pasha of the Tuna (Danube) Vilayet. Ordered by Murad V, Alemdar Mustafa had to put down the rebellion of the Bandit.



The Sultan who failed - 1793

In the late months of 1792 AD, Bedouins from the Nejd had marched to more populated areas as Hejaz and Al Haasa. The Bedouin tribes are loyal to the Emir of Diriyah, a man who is rather unknown among the local Pasha’s but only is known to be allied with a Sheikh who has rather strange believes to those of the Pasha’s and the natives. These tribes loyal to Emir Abdul Aziz bin Muhammad have been raiding Caravans, looting towns and killing those who resist against the armies of the Emir. Eventually, these raids reached the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina. When the raid of the two holy cities came to Istanbul it caused an outrage among the already unhappy Janissaries under command of Cebecibasi Cerkes Osman, a Janissary Veteran and Commander during the Russo-Turkish War. A Sultan, a Caliph who could not protect two of the three most holiest cities of Islam is not worthy of staying on the throne. As far as Cerkes Osman, other Janissary Officers and opponents of Murad V reforms were concerned, Murad V failed to do the most important job he had. Failing to see such threats, Murad V was in a position his predecessors never were. Unless he reacts fast, his position on the throne is uncertain.
 
So internal unrest, everywhere janissaries and pashas being a bunch of wankers.
There is only one option left.
DIRECT RULE FROM CONSTANTINOPLE.
And time to expand thr regular army and crush everyone.

Also invest in arabia now.
 
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