Russian Capital on the Black Sea

So OTL Peter built Petersburg basically from scratch. So what if either he in different circumstances - in this case instead of Petersburg - or some of his sucessors decide to build a new capital on the shores of the Black Sea? Im thinking something replacing Azov or around there.

What would be the most important consequences of this action?
 
I only see him doing this if he loses the great northern war and that it not devastating enough that he still has money to do that
 
What would be the most important consequences of this action?

There are a couple of problems:

1. That's a hell of a long way from Russia's natural homeland, whereas Saint Petersburg is near old Novgorod, the heartland of Russia. Would building a capital, over a thousand miles away from the heart of Russia by land, be a sensible move?

2. Even after the capture of Azov from the Ottoman Empire in 1696, the Ottoman control of the Straights of Kerch meant that the Russian fleet was bottled up in the Sea of Azov and did not have open access to the Black Sea.

3. Building a capital on the Black Sea, even if it could be conquered first, would be a risky move, since the Ottomans could come back at any moment. At worst, the new capital might be sacked by the Ottomans.

4. Even assuming complete Russian success, Ottoman control of the Bosporus still means that Russia is blocked from accessing the Mediterranean and remains subject to Turkish blockade at any time.

In summary I think this would not be a good idea. Tsar Peter made the right choice, imo, when he built Saint Petersburg on the Baltic.
 
There are a couple of problems:

1. That's a hell of a long way from Russia's natural homeland, whereas Saint Petersburg is near old Novgorod, the heartland of Russia. Would building a capital, over a thousand miles away from the heart of Russia by land, be a sensible move?

I might agree with this however as he was an autocrat he could do it. The building of Petersburg was a pretty crazy idea and a very costly one as well.

2. Even after the capture of Azov from the Ottoman Empire in 1696, the Ottoman control of the Straights of Kerch meant that the Russian fleet was bottled up in the Sea of Azov and did not have open access to the Black Sea.

I assume that part of the POD would be either Russia more successfull against the Otto's - meaning they secure the whole of the northern Black Sea. Ot a later tsar or tsarina does it.

3. Building a capital on the Black Sea, even if it could be conquered first, would be a risky move, since the Ottomans could come back at any moment. At worst, the new capital might be sacked by the Ottomans.

Ans Petersburg was next to the swedish border for a century. They could have come back as well.

4. Even assuming complete Russian success, Ottoman control of the Bosporus still means that Russia is blocked from accessing the Mediterranean and remains subject to Turkish blockade at any time.

And Denmark can bottle up Russia in the Baltics just as easily.

In summary I think this would not be a good idea. Tsar Peter made the right choice, imo, when he built Saint Petersburg on the Baltic.

Im asking what would be the results if they did it. For Instance the control of the srtaits - a pivotal question for Russia OTL would become even more important. I think Russia would be driven to an even more aggressive policy of conquest against the Ottomans. On the same time they would be much further from Germany and western Europe - but much closer to Austria, Italy and France. These are very different cultural influences than OTL. It might also inspire more or earlier russian settlement on the vicinity. Also the climate of the city would be likely much better than Petersburg.
 
The reason why Russia did not focus on the Black Sea and the Mediterranean is because by the time of Peter the Great, the Mediterranean had gone through two centuries of diminishing importance. The North Atlantic was the beating heart of trade at the time, so it only makes sense that Russia should pivot in that direction. Having a port on the Baltic immediately gives you access to trade with England and the Netherlands, among others. Having a port on the Sea of Azov gives you access to virtually nothing, except for corsairs.
 
I think Russia would be driven to an even more aggressive policy of conquest against the Ottomans.

Yes, I agree. This.

What effect that might have on the two states would be interesting and unpredictable. They were pretty aggressive on the Ottomans OTL. But perhaps an even more imminent threat from Russia might give further prompt to Ottoman efforts at reform and modernisation in the late 18th and 19th centuries. These reforms enabled the Ottoman state to survive OTL into the 20th century, but perhaps if they were pushed a bit harder earlier on, it ironically might end up strengthening the Ottoman Empire. Goodness knows what impact that would have on later history?
 
So OTL Peter built Petersburg basically from scratch. So what if either he in different circumstances - in this case instead of Petersburg - or some of his sucessors decide to build a new capital on the shores of the Black Sea? Im thinking something replacing Azov or around there.

Azov is, obviously, on the shores of the Sea of Azov, not the Black Sea but the distance is not too big. For this to happen the prerequisites would be (a) annexation of the Crimea Khanate and (b) peace with the Ottomans allowing traffic through the states during the time of peace.

What would be the most important consequences of this action?

More intensive trade with France? Perhaps more active and earlier Russian expansion into the region to secure the capital (with the capital being there an idea of the "Russian Straits" starts making some practical sense).
 
I only see him doing this if he loses the great northern war and that it not devastating enough that he still has money to do that

If he successfully continues his aggression in the Azov/Black Seas direction the GNW may not even happen: the reasons for it were shaky, to put it mildly (Peter was expecting to get something practically for free and then could not get out because Charles was too stubborn).
 
One big problem they're likely to run into though is that, by placing the political capital so far south and shifting the national focus to the Black Sea/Cauauses/Steppes as a consquence, the naturally more populated and wealthy/productive Russian heartland and north is liable to develop an alternative "center of gravity" that will weakn centeral Czarist authority. IOTL, one of the reasons Russian managed to be so powerful was they were able to bring establish an absolutist state and so concentrate the full resources of their state on iniatives as well as easily propagate reform (as opposed to the, say, the Ottomans who's level of decenteralization was serving as a hinderance to similar reform efforts in the early 1800's). ITTL I could very easily see the Novgorod/Muscovy region resisting any attempt to keep a tight hand on the reigns from the distant court, especially considering how powerful "Old Russia" culture was in the regions surronding Moscow in contrast to the reform-minded, Europeanesque culture increasingly being pushed by the court under Peter.

This hampers Russian power in the medium-long term, and runs the very real risk of the north even trying to break away (or, at least, the locals developing an alternative enough mindset to try to seize control)
 
Maybe if they colonise and conquer south faster, with the Ukraine being far more densely populated, and as such a signficant centre of gravity. And a more aggressive dagger pointed at the Ottomans. Maybe the Black Sea capital is intended as a temporary capital until they can take Constantinople. Which they either fail at, or the guy who conquers it is conviced not to make the capital a newly conquered city far from the core lands. But they still want to keep both areas under control, so a Black Sea port capital is a inbetween comprimise.
 
So OTL Peter built Petersburg basically from scratch. So what if either he in different circumstances - in this case instead of Petersburg - or some of his sucessors decide to build a new capital on the shores of the Black Sea? Im thinking something replacing Azov or around there.

What would be the most important consequences of this action?
What about if Russia does this after a WWI victory in the early 20th century? Would that work for your scenario?
 
I don't think it would be any of those. Too close to the Ottomans or Poland. It would be best to stay east of the Ukraine. So either Azov or Rostov on the Don.

Very close to the Crimean and Nogai Hordes. Then, of course, Kerch is in the Ottoman hands controlling exit from the Sea of Azov. Prerequisites would be conquest of the whole region. Sevastopol becomes available only after conquest of the Crimea. Donetsk is pretty much useless: it is located on a minor river flowing into the Sea of Azov. From that perspective Rostov on Don is more attractive: at least it is a port city on a major river (of course, the city did not exist until mid-XVIII but the same applies to most of the candidates on initial list). Or Azov - in the mouth of Don and already existed. The same considerations regarding "cleaning the area" apply.
 
One big problem they're likely to run into though is that, by placing the political capital so far south and shifting the national focus to the Black Sea/Cauauses/Steppes as a consquence, the naturally more populated and wealthy/productive Russian heartland and north is liable to develop an alternative "center of gravity" that will weakn centeral Czarist authority.

The whole schema (no matter which of the candidate cities is chosen) involves, as a prerequisite, conquest of the Khanate of Crimea, dealing with the Nogai Horde, removing the Ottomans from the fortresses on the Black Sea coast (depending upon scenario, Kerch, Ochakov, etc.) and getting the Ottomans to agree on a free traffic through the Straits. Implementation of that program means availability of the fertile lands to the North of the Black Sea (region controlled by the Crimea). Which, in turn, means that the area can be safely populated and that the former border area of the Left Bank Ukraine is safe. Which means that the area can be populated reasonably fast and provide a considerable volume of the agricultural product. Production from the Central Russia could be reasonably easily shipped to the newly open Black Sea ports both by land and by taking advantage of the existing river routes (with an obvious but not necessarily successful attempt to build Volga-Don canal).

While it can be said that St-Petersburg was closer (as crow flies) to the Central Russia (actually, I'm not so sure), it did not necessarily had a more convenient communication with it than one which would be provided by Volga-Don route: quite a few economically important cities already were on Volga, including Nizny Novgorod, and the river routes had been more reliable than the land ones. In OTL St-Petersburg created "shift of the gravity" without any noticeable weakening of Tsar's authority.


IOTL, one of the reasons Russian managed to be so powerful was they were able to bring establish an absolutist state and so concentrate the full resources of their state on iniatives as well as easily propagate reform (as opposed to the, say, the Ottomans who's level of decenteralization was serving as a hinderance to similar reform efforts in the early 1800's). ITTL I could very easily see the Novgorod/Muscovy region resisting any attempt to keep a tight hand on the reigns from the distant court, especially considering how powerful "Old Russia" culture was in the regions surronding Moscow in contrast to the reform-minded, Europeanesque culture increasingly being pushed by the court under Peter.

Rather fanciful on more than one account. ;)

There was no "Moscow - Novgorod region": thanks to the consistent efforts of the rulers starting from Ivan III Novgorod became just a provincial city (from 1727 a capital of the gubernia) much less important than Nizhny Novgorod which by the XIX century grew into the trade capital of the Russian Empire. And don't forget other important cities in the area, like Astrakhan. Then, pretty much all that "Old Russia" stuff was pretty much non-existent and western-style costumes together with the smoking and excessive, even by the Russian standards, drinking (which was more or less what "westernization" at Peter's court amount to) had been adopted well before creation of St-Petersburg.


This hampers Russian power in the medium-long term, and runs the very real risk of the north even trying to break away (or, at least, the locals developing an alternative enough mindset to try to seize control)

The "North" as far as Novgorod is involved would not go anywhere (the last time its inhabitants had their own mindset was during the reign of Ivan IV and when being occupied by Swedes during the Time of Troubles the area did not develop any clearly visible "western" tendencies) and trade via Swedish-held Narva, Riga and Revel would continue.
 

Falk

Banned
Here is an alternate, fortified version of St.Petersburg. Perhaps something like this could be built on the Black Sea.




tumblr_llm052c9OE1qgpvyjo1_1280.jpg
 
A tsar/ina after Peter, but before St. Petersburg gets too established, might decide to pivot southwards and build a new capital in the South? Catherine was pretty preoccupied with conquering the Black Sea region, perhaps she decides to follow Peter's example and build 'Yekaterinagorod' or something in the Crimea or where Rostov-na-Don is.
 
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