The Great Turk returns - Alternate resurging Ottomans (1747-1947)

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Battle of Kagul - 13 September/21 September 1791

Silahdar Osman Pasha had retreated to Kagul and decided to wait out orders in Bessarabia rather than in Moldova or Wallachia in order to prevent Suvorov to take over Moldova entirely. Suvorov knew that Osman Pasha was still in Bessarabia and could actually trap him in Moldova. The most important of this matter is that there should not come any reinforcements. If they do Suvorov is caught between two fires and can not properly conquer Bessarabia. When the scouts of Suvorov told that no Ottoman Army was near Galati and the closest Army was in Bucharest or in Plevne. That is when Suvorov decided to march on Osman Pasha’s camp. Osman Pasha had in those months built strong defenses and had battle hardened Janissaries at his disposal. With a total of 40,000 men Osman Pasha was prepared against any attack. Suvorov however had 80,000 men by now, double the man Osman Pasha had. On 13 September the Artillery of the Ottoman Camps started to fire on the Northern Roads although the Russian Army was not yet in sight. The scouts told Osman Pasha the Russians were marching South and were close to reaching the Camp. With the high ground for the artillery this was not a difficult task to hit the Russians. The Russians remained out of combat until Suvorov had organised them to be ready. In the upcoming two days the Russian Artillery hit the Camp without big casualties while also trying to lure out the Ottoman Cavalry from the Camp. The remaining two days were without any real fighting other than skirmishers. The Russians kept hitting and retreating the Ottoman Camp without the success of the Ottoman Cavalry moving out of the Camp. When the wind started to change from course coming from the North East Suvorov ordered a great fire to be started before the camp. It was a heavy task as the Ottoman Camp used the artillery to harass the Russians. However the plan worked and the wind drove the large smoke towards the Ottoman Camp after which the Camp became unbearable for the Ottoman Army. Osman Pasha ordered a retreat from the Camp and managed to take as much as supplies as he could. The Russians were prevented from attacking the Ottomans due to the fire between them but the Camp was taken and the Russians had their hands free to march and finally force Osman Pasha to battle in Izmail. The Russians were victorious.

 

[haider najib]

Just a question what has the crimean army been doing all this time?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Raid on Sulina - 4 March 1792

Suvorov had taken over all of Bessarabia after the Ottoman retreat from Izmail. Quickly after the victory he heard that the Ottoman Navy dispatchment in the Black Sea, a fleet of 5 Ship of the Lines from Huseyin Pasha, was in Konstanta Dobruja. From his Great Army he took 8,000 men of which 2,000 were cavalry and 6,000 Infantry to raid the town and possibly capture the fleet on surprise. By 4 March 1792 the Russian Expeditionary Force was settled in the abandoned town of Sulina. The Authorities had left the town and it was now ruled by the Romanian Orthodox Church Clergy. Many people did not leave their homes. There was much fear of avenging Janissaries who took their anger out of the populace. And there were rumours about the young outlaw Pazvantoglu Osman raiding lands as far as the Black Sea Coast. The Russians had set a Camp outside town. Suvorov and his guards remained in town to gather information about the Ottomans. On the Early morning of 4 March Suvorov decided to leave Sulina but was remained at request of the Clergy of Town after hearing from Fishers that the Ottoman Fleet had left Dobruja. Whether it was true or not Suvorov wanted to be absolutely sure before marching down South. On the night of 4 March the private force of outlaws and renegade Janissaries had reached Sulina. Not knowing that there was a Russian Army near the town the Army of Pazvantoglu Osman only stopped after some of his trusted guards about the Russians. The Camp was not big but there were Russians, maybe about 4,000 men, as told to Pazvantoglu. Osman enforced the attack but divided his 1,200 men in two force. There were about 1,000 men to raid the Russian Army Camp and the remainder 200 to raid Sulina itself. For Osman, this was a chance to be pardoned if he killed this dispatched force. Little did he know that General Suvorov was in town as well. The Army encampment was attacked first only 5 minutes later for Pazvantoglu to raid Sulina as well. During the raid on Sulina Suvorov retreated to the town hall with all the priests and bishops as it was well defended. Suvorov had 20 men to defend the hall and 100 militia men from the town itself to defend the area. It took only a little time that the Renegade Janissaries too break the lines of the militia in town and break in the town hall. Suvorovs men managed to hold the building for at least half an hour until the men of Pazvantoglu broke through main floor and used gunpowder to blow a portion of the building. A part of the building exploded and it started to collapse. When Pazvantoglu found out there was a Russian General in the building and was still alive he took him with him to the town square. The Russian Army Camp was destroyed letting only 150 of the original 8,000 veterans from the Moldavian Front alive. The men were all shot dead and the captured general was hung in Sulina by the men of Pazvantoglu. When Pazvantoglu later realised he killed the best Russian General in the war he knew he could ask anything from the Sultan and he did. But during the raid he did not know who the Russian General was only that he was a General and was preparing for something. The weapons from the Russians and the treasure from the Romanian Orthodox Church in Sulina were taken back to Vidin that Pazvantoglu was using as a base since the day he occupied it after killing Kara Ali Pasha. During one war, in merely months, two of the best generals at its time were killed by the same men. A simple outlaw. Not even an experienced outlaw. But this action made him feared and legendary.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Just a question what has the crimean army been doing all this time?

Raiding the Ukraine, Volga region and the Caucasus mostly.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Treaty of Akdiyar - 1792

As soon as Paul became Czar he wanted to end the wasteful wars against Sweden, Persia and the Ottoman Empire and reorganise Russia for the future. Orlov and the other Russian nobles used Ivan VI as their puppet and failed. This failure might have been the best for Paul I to get the population to support him against the nobles. Paul was not happy with the loss of the war but he wanted to end it to prepare for the next one even better. But now it has to end. And Paul head for the Crimea where Sultan Murad V, the Crimean Khan Sahin Giray and Safavid Shah Abbas IV would meet each other. The four rulers would come to conclusion to end the war between the nations and restart an era of peace, trade and friendship. As they would name it. The treaty followed:

• Russia will pay 3,000,000 Rubles to the Ottoman Empire immediately followed by 1,750,000 Rubles to the Safavids also immediately and at last pay 1,000,000 Rubles to the Crimean Khanate
• The Ottoman Empire will acknowledge Russian hegemony over Podolia and the Ukraine
• The Russian Empire will accept Ottoman hegemony over the Danubian Principalities and the Crimean Khanate
• Russia will tolerate an Ottoman annexation of the Crimean Khanate if the male members of the House of Giray goes extinct
• Russia will retreat from Circassia and Dagestan Imamate.
• Russia will destroy its Caspian Sea Fleet
• Russia will respect Polish-Lithuanian borders as they are per 1792
• The Ottoman Empire will return all the Captives from war and the remains of Russian officers in Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire will do the same for the Ottoman Empire as well

 

[haider najib]

Russia will tolerate an Ottoman annexation of the Crimean Khanate if the male members of the House of Giray goes extinct

nice ottoman crimea might happen again i support fully as it is more interesting, also if the crimean only did raiding i do believe the ottomans could do better with their force.

When Pazvantoglu later realised he killed the best Russian General in the war he knew he could ask anything from the Sultan and he did

I wonder what he asked for sultans daughter, land, money, titles or to be employed.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The Death of the Sultan Caliph - 1792

Abdulhamid I was old during the end days of the war. He was 67 years old and ill. His illness during the last months of the war became worse with the news of the deaths of Kara Ali Pasha, the disasters in Bessarabia and the death of Silahdar Osman Pasha. He immediately ordered Sehzade Murad to return to the capital to take the throne as his heir if he were to die. Abdulhamid I died in 4 March 1792. Murad became Sultan and immediately left for the Crimea at the invitation of Czar Paul who wanted to negotiate peace. The old Sultan Abdulhamid I (1775-1792) was dead. It was the era of Murad V (1792-...), the son of Mehmed V to rule. An enthusiast of modernisation of the Empire, taking it after the death of his modernist brother Sehzade Ibrahim, Murad V made preparations for more reforms. Most of the Army reforms were done during the reign of his father Mehmed V, his uncle Mustafa III and his other uncle Abdulhamid I. There was an Army. The problem was the Janissary Corps for him. Although many did perform rather well they started to behave worse as well. Many regional Janissaries were heard that they were aiding outlaw leaders of which Pazvantoglu Osman was the most famous of them. This behavior like bandits was hated by Murad or his heir Selim. But the Corps had still a lot of support. Mostly recent converts found aid from the Corps against hostile Christians from the same regions who would rebel immediately when the Christian Armies crossed the border of the Islamic countries. The first of the victims of the Christian rebels would be of course recent converts. Because of that the rising number of converts in the Balkans would heavily support the Janissary Corps for the sole reason of protection against Christian Rebels. Sultan Murad could do a little then wait until public opinion turns against the Corps and it would not take too much time for them.

Osman Pazvantoglu, strongest bandit in the Balkans and in his time, 1792


The bandit at court - 1792

Murad V: “Pazvantoglu Osman… I have heard a lot of you during my Military Campaigns and I can’t say it were good things what I heard.”


Osman Pazvantoglu: “...”


Murad V: “Then I heard you have killed General Suvorov in one of your raids… Maybe it was you destiny. I should execute you for killing our most able Kara Ali Pasha in your ambush. However… I promised to Allah that I would reward the very person that killed this man. Your selfish opportunist raid have saved a lot of soldiers Osman.”


Osman Pazvantoglu: “I am honoured that you are pleased with the death of the infidel commander my Sultan. I am honoured to serve you as your servant.”


Murad V: “Great! I appoint you as the Pasha of Vidin Sanjak. As our government official you are now responsible for Vidin. But this means no more raids, no more being the bandit. You obey your Sultan and that is your task.”


Osman Pazvantoglu: “As my Sultan orders.”


Murad V was not even the slightest bit pleased with Osman Pazvantoglu, a bandit, to have him as a government official. But what Osman did was maybe a godsent gift for the Empire. Suvorov was plaguing the Ottoman Army in Moldova. But then again, this very man had killed Kara Ali, a man that was even feared by Suvorov himself. And then there was the family of Kara Ali Pasha. Murad V gave the family a large estate in the Aegean, far away from Osman. Keeping Kara Ali’s family away from Ruscuk and thus Osman Pazvantoglu will prevent future blood feud between two factions in the region. For Murad V, Kara Ali was his teacher on war. But the popularity gained by Osman Pazvantoglu among the regional populace could not be ignored. For now Murad can give the bandit what he desires. But one mistake and the head of this man will be taken. There are after all worse problems for Murad V to be taken care off.

Murad V, 1792

 

[haider najib]

Goddammit the russians already want another war later on. At this point the ottomans are going to have to realise they cant keep letting the russians invade, the crimeans are doing shit to stop it. So its maybe time for an ottoman invasion later on to put the russian bear down. Free Novgorod, make Tver great again, Burn Kiev to the ground, take the north caucuses.

Does the ottomans have any formal allies? Except for persia. Poland who the fuck knows not even the polish know they are. Sweden? Whats France doing?

With the new sultan what is the dynastic shape of the house of osman, has he married another muslim princess and stuff.

 

[Avrorrange]

Are the Crimean modernising as well?

 

[luis3007]

Long term the Crimeans situation is untenable. There is too many Russians on the frontier and the longest the peace lasts the more the Russians will be able to prepare to roll over them.

 

[LunazimHawk]

Long term the Crimeans situation is untenable. There is too many Russians on the frontier and the longest the peace lasts the more the Russians will be able to prepare to roll over them.

What's the solution to stopping the Russian settlers from overtaking the steppes? Honestly it'll probably be inviting turkic tribes to settle in the vast steppes of Crimea. The most likely candidates are Kazakhs settling in large quantities in the rural country, serving as soldiers and herders. While the Tatar elite and middle class get incorporated and established, the Turkic tribes will ensure Turkish hegemony. Probably will see a lot of Russians and Ukrainians depart from Crimea land due to conflict between the Russian's and Crimea state, as well as ethnic conflict.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Well, European monarchies are going to fight France (and each other). And then, once Revolutionary Wars end, they'll still need the rest (especially Russia and Austria).

So the Ottomans have between 20 and 40 years of quiet, that they can use to modernize infrastructure, economy, administration, military, and reinforce control on outer territories (Barbary States, Danubian Principalities, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and Caucasus vassals).

And get even closer to Morocco, Persia, Mughals and Mysore. And help them all modernize as well.

 

[haider najib]

The russians were the biggest winners from the Napoleonic wars. Its going to be interesting to see how it will play out, weaker russia and austria but a stronger sweden ottomans kinda change his (nappy) plans now.
After it would make sense for the ottomans to sort out its vassals and reorganised them. Which ones will be annexed the north african ones and crimea as the buffer doesnt work its better to just annex it. Danubian principalities combine them? Or annex wallachia and Moldova, also the one in dalmatia.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Goddammit the russians already want another war later on. At this point the ottomans are going to have to realise they cant keep letting the russians invade, the crimeans are doing shit to stop it. So its maybe time for an ottoman invasion later on to put the russian bear down. Free Novgorod, make Tver great again, Burn Kiev to the ground, take the north caucuses.

Does the ottomans have any formal allies? Except for persia. Poland who the fuck knows not even the polish know they are. Sweden? Whats France doing?

With the new sultan what is the dynastic shape of the house of osman, has he married another muslim princess and stuff.

Wanting something and executing it are two different things my man. Russia wants their access but at somw point they have to give up. For now Sweden is their biggest threat.

Persia is an ally, Mysore as well but more of an ally in India vs others. Sweden is only an anti-Russian ally.

Murad V (34) is Sultan, his heir is his nephew Selim (30). Followed by their other nephews Mustafa (13) and Mahmud (7). Murad has one son (Osman).

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Are the Crimean modernising as well?

Militarily and economically yes. Slave trade is as good as dead except minor numbers from the Caucasus but that one is dying out as well. Their biggest export are fish, wheat, potatoes etc. Mostly agricultural.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Long term the Crimeans situation is untenable. There is too many Russians on the frontier and the longest the peace lasts the more the Russians will be able to prepare to roll over them.

If there is war with Russia within 15 years it is indeed untenable. The Ottomans are Militarily almost advanced (reforming or disbanding the Janissaries is a must). But the state has to recentralise again. Egypt and Iraq are free of Mamluk ruld but due to the distance it is still close to being autonomous. Same problem for Bosnia, Greece and Georgia. North Africa is as good as independent but only recognise the Sultan as their superior for formal reasons.

There is also the reform on the rural lands. A lot of Ayans and Aga's do not execute the orders of the Sultan. Taxfarming is abolished but if government authority is low it is still used.

For optimal benefit a long term peace with Russia is necessary.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

What's the solution to stopping the Russian settlers from overtaking the steppes? Honestly it'll probably be inviting turkic tribes to settle in the vast steppes of Crimea. The most likely candidates are Kazakhs settling in large quantities in the rural country, serving as soldiers and herders. While the Tatar elite and middle class get incorporated and established, the Turkic tribes will ensure Turkish hegemony. Probably will see a lot of Russians and Ukrainians depart from Crimea land due to conflict between the Russian's and Crimea state, as well as ethnic conflict.

Many flee the lands they recently settle in in wartimes due to Tatar raids only to return later. There are Army bases to force them to return if they cross. But we'll see how that works out.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The russians were the biggest winners from the Napoleonic wars. Its going to be interesting to see how it will play out, weaker russia and austria but a stronger sweden ottomans kinda change his (nappy) plans now.
After it would make sense for the ottomans to sort out its vassals and reorganised them. Which ones will be annexed the north african ones and crimea as the buffer doesnt work its better to just annex it. Danubian principalities combine them? Or annex wallachia and Moldova, also the one in dalmatia.

OTL the Revolutionary Wars were ideal to reform asap with minimum land loss. But the Russo-Turkish War of 1806 and the Coups of 1807 and 1808 basically killed that opportunity. In this case the Janissary Corps can not turn against the new Army which exists more than 30 years by now. Their only luck is to have a Sultan to be reactionary enough to abolish them.

Romania is too populous and Christian to properly annex them. North Africa isn't. North Africa can be easily dealth with. The Pasha of Zara has already incorporated Ragusa. He is as autonomous as Egypt was OTL. But weaker than Egypt.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Well, European monarchies are going to fight France (and each other). And then, once Revolutionary Wars end, they'll still need the rest (especially Russia and Austria).

So the Ottomans have between 20 and 40 years of quiet, that they can use to modernize infrastructure, economy, administration, military, and reinforce control on outer territories (Barbary States, Danubian Principalities, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and Caucasus vassals).

And get even closer to Morocco, Persia, Mughals and Mysore. And help them all modernize as well.

The RW in Europe will be ideal to break autonomies and deal with internal problems. That unless the French decide to attack the Ottomans.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

The RW in Europe will be ideal to break autonomies and deal with internal problems. That unless the French decide to attack the Ottomans.

France might attack Egypt at some point (not very likely but possible). Or make a deal with Russia saying "We won't intervene if you attack Ottomans, in return for X".

But invading core Ottoman territories would be hard-to-impossible (RN and Ottoman Navy on the way in the Med, and invading through Austria = nightmare terrain, risk of Austrian betrayal and loooong supply lines). And pointless. And costly. And create another enemy.

And, neutral Ottomans = Austria and Russia forced to guard their southern borders = less troops facing France.

And French invasion of OE would alienate Mysore and Mughals (which France needs to check British influence in India).

And with Ottomans having beaten both Austria and Russia simultaneously (and not through luck but actual superiority on the field), any notion they're "weak" has been dispelled.

Now, if France wins the RW and becomes the leader of Europe (turning everyone but Britain and Russia into permanent vassals + making Russia an "ally" + weakening Britain), it might happen next.